Is the Governing body still "spirit directed"?

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, Gone Away said:

However, the inference that because the devil is bad, all badness comes from him is still not logical.

Problem is in Bible then. :))......or in WT interpretation about this issue in GB teachings as it is showed down by source in JWorg library: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2007401#h=1

....or if JW members not reading publications and don't know what words are in there, hehehe

"Jesus rightly condemned those reprehensible men. (Matthew 23:33-35) However, he recognized that there was someone else who must share the blame for the evil in their hearts. He said to them: “You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.” (John 8:44) Though Jesus acknowledged that humans are capable of wicked acts, he pointed to the very source of evil—Satan the Devil."

:))) in fact according to this article, this is not GB explanation but something what is Jesus himself acknowledged and pointed as reality.... :))))

Now we have several choices:

a) to read Bible alone and make conclusions

b) to read WT publication and make conclusions

c) not reading nothing and be happy  

[Witness]

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Picture of Abraham and Sara came to me. What spirit guided Abraham when he lied about Sara, how she is his sister and not wife? Is his lie in red field, or he has "theocratic warfare" and not told privileged information to person who is not entitled to hear/know it? :))   

This always bothered me too, until I kept reading...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+20%3A9-18&version=NKJV

[Evacuated]

42 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie

I see where you are coming from now. So Yes, the devil is indeed the father or originator of the lie that one can exist with moral autonomy. Indeed, he did it first and enticed others to make the same choice.

When Adam and Eve chose the same course, they were not the originators of that course. They just followed an already trodden path.

The blame for the badness of the course itself, can surely be levelled fairly and squarely with Satan himself. The blame for the bad consequences of that course, whilst in large part the responsibility of the originator and promoter of it, is shared by all those who willingly follow it. In other words, those that follow in the course Satan originated cannot escape culpability for their chosen course. In other words, "the Devil made me do it" is an excuse that did not, and will not, "cut the mustard". 

However, this explanation in no way sets aside the spurious logic in the statement "the devil is bad therefore all badness is from the devil".

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

32 minutes ago, Witness said:

11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Picture of Abraham and Sara came to me. What spirit guided Abraham when he lied about Sara, how she is his sister and not wife? Is his lie in red field, or he has "theocratic warfare" and not told privileged information to person who is not entitled to hear/know it? :))   

This always bothered me too, until I kept reading...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+20%3A9-18&version=NKJV

¹¹ And Abraham said, “Because I thought, surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will kill me on account of my wife. ¹² But indeed she is truly my sister. She is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. ¹³ And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father’s house, that I said to her, ‘This is your kindness that you should do for me: in every place, wherever we go, say of me, “He is my brother.” ’ ”

It seems to me Abraham married his step-sister?  Or would that be a cousin?

[Evacuated]

34 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

It seems to me Abraham married his step-sister?  Or would that be a cousin?

Half-sister?

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, Witness said:

This always bothered me too, until I kept reading...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+20%3A9-18&version=NKJV

Abraham did this same lie 2 time - Gen 12

Well, i can see (in chapter 20:11) how Abraham has prejudice that people of different tribe, people, religion are all bad, immoral, without ethics, not honest... how similar with some JW members standpoint on so called "worldly" people, that they are not worth of their society because of similar reasons. 

Second, he has not told people "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth", but his version of tribal and family connections and customs (and such explanation came at the culmination of problem, not at first contact, in the beginning). And this is not even in sphere of WT thesis about "theocratic warfare". Reason is, as he told, fear for his own life. He did not care about Sara's life and her moral integrity, honesty. Not about what will people talking about his God, religion, beliefs. Only about his life - according to text. 

[Witness]

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Abraham did this same lie 2 time - Gen 12

Well, i can see (in chapter 20:11) how Abraham has prejudice that people of different tribe, people, religion are all bad, immoral, without ethics, not honest... how similar with some JW members standpoint on so called "worldly" people, that they are not worth of their society because of similar reasons. 

Second, he has not told people "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth", but his version of tribal and family connections and customs (and such explanation came at the culmination of problem, not at first contact, in the beginning). And this is not even in sphere of WT thesis about "theocratic warfare". Reason is, as he told, fear for his own life. He did not care about Sara's life and her moral integrity, honesty. Not about what will people talking about his God, religion, beliefs. Only about his life - according to text. 

7

Abraham upheld the one true God among nations who practiced idolatry.  He was the minority among the majority who worshipped many gods.  Apparently, there are legends saying that Abraham was persecuted for his faith in YHWH.  Through him, and Sarah a covenant was made – a promise of life to his seed.  This was pretty big and I would imagine, caused some anxiety carrying such a heavy burden.  If you knew you were the “father” of many nations yet didn’t know how it would play out, what would you think?    We don’t know the whole story, (just as we don’t know all that Jesus did when on the earth John 21:25) but this is my opinion about why he said in two instances (that we know of), that Sarah was his sister and not his wife, which really, is not a lie.

Firstly, when people introduce their siblings that may have one parent different, do they always clarify they are “half-brothers” or “half-sisters?  Not really.  Even after Abimelek learned that Sarah was Abraham’s wife, he still called Abraham, Sarah’s brother.  Gen 20:16 

Every prophet chosen by God faces persecution and the threat of death.  Obadiah hid a hundred prophets in a cave from Jezebel who was out for every true prophet’s blood.  When Elijah told him to go to Ahab and announce his arrival, Obadiah balked, fearing for his life. Even Elijah fled from Jezebel to a cave, afraid for his life.  1 Kings 19:3   How many others did the same thing? And how many were Satan’s target?  All of them, and it seems he used those who fell into idolatry to do his dirty work.     There is also the thought that the love Abraham had for Sarah caused him to reason as he did.  Perhaps, just perhaps, he reasoned that she would be safer apart from him than with him, keeping in mind the persecution that he had suffered through his life.   I don’t doubt that Abraham and Sarah, after all they went through together, had a deep love for one another especially as they saw the increasing fulfillment of God’s promise through the birth of Isaac.  Gen 17:21; Heb 6:13-15; 11:8-12

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

how Abraham has prejudice that people of different tribe, people, religion are all bad, immoral, without ethics, not honest...

Gen 18:16-33

[Space Merchant]

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Abraham did this same lie 2 time - Gen 12

Well, i can see (in chapter 20:11) how Abraham has prejudice that people of different tribe, people, religion are all bad, immoral, without ethics, not honest... how similar with some JW members standpoint on so called "worldly" people, that they are not worth of their society because of similar reasons. 

Second, he has not told people "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth", but his version of tribal and family connections and customs (and such explanation came at the culmination of problem, not at first contact, in the beginning). And this is not even in sphere of WT thesis about "theocratic warfare". Reason is, as he told, fear for his own life. He did not care about Sara's life and her moral integrity, honesty. Not about what will people talking about his God, religion, beliefs. Only about his life - according to text. 

That would defeat the purpose of the Great Commission if that was the case, thus preaching the gospel would be done with a hypocritical mindset of what the early Church adheres to. Theocratic Warfare is just another name for Spiritual Warfare and it is a practice that is done by Christians today, as did people in ancient times who stand in defense for God and or His Laws. This is also coupled with Civil Disobedience, which was practiced and put into action by Apostle Paul and the churches of which he writes to, Johnathan, the eldest son of King Saul and a close friend of King David who did such in order to save his friend, moreover, Civil Disobedience was predominately done by solely women in the Bible, a very good example is Re'hab and or perhaps Jael, also known as Yael. Spiritual Warfare and Civil Disobedience is usually allowed and done by Christians should anything is in conflict with God's Law, in this sense, the Laws of God vs. Man's Law that seek to change, and or put God's Law into conflict, regardless of what said Laws of God is in connection to, an obvious one is to not making God's purpose and will by means of spreading the gospel known which results in persecution, the Law of Men can conflict and or seek to change God's Law which is a No-No to Christians, this also goes with Religious Freedom, as discussed with you on this matter before in regards to Religious Rights and Rights to Practice.

In Abraham's case, you also need to realize that the fold of which Abraham is part of is deemed an enemy by those on the outside, haters of God and His people, the very reason you have a whole lot of fighting going on seen in the Old Testament, and what I can say, some of these battles can be brutal at times.

Now, In The Book of Genesis, chapter 12 (The Call of A'bram),

NOTE: Such is refereed to as the Wife–sister narratives in the Book of Genesis and is part of the Torah,which took place inasmuch as 3 times.

In outlined form:

• A'bram leaves Ha'ran for Ca'naan (1-9)
• God’s promise to A'bram (7)
• A'bram and Sar'ai in Egypt (10-20)

A'bram and his wife Sar'ai (later on known as Abraham and Sarah via change) traveled to Egypt due to famine that has taken up in the land of Ca'naan. A'bram  gave instruction to his wife, Sar'ai, to tell people in Egypt that she was his sister instead of his wife. The reason A'bram  said this was to protect himself, granted with what can happen if they took the alternative approach or at least according to his reasoning. Furthermore, because of Sar'ai's evident beauty, A'bram feared someone come and slay him and take Sar'ai as his wife, for he feared being killed because of someone who would fancy his wife, for it was a thing in those days to kill the mate of someone and take his spouse for their own. A'bram's plan to pass her off as his sister would ensure that A'bram would be well received by those he met, build up a reputation, per-say and not be a man marked for death (having a target painted on his back).

While in Egypt, Sar'ai’s beauty attracted people and it caught the attention of Pharaoh who was the ruler at the time. This resulted in Sar'ai being taken into the Pharaoh’s house, and this resulted in surplus of gifts being given to A'bram.

We have these 2 verses to look at:

• Genesis 12:16, 17 - A'bram and Sar'ai in Egypt - (16) And for her sake he dealt well with A'bram; and he had sheep, oxen, male donkeys, male servants, female servants, female donkeys, and camels. (17) But the Lord [YHWH] afflicted Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sar'ai, A'bram's wife.

 

Bizarre, yes, but in the end, the Pharaoh was apparently a victim of A'bram and Sar'ai’s plan, which is evident as to what is said above. The conclusion of this punishment reveals the obvious reason. When the Pharaoh realized Sar'ai was A'bram’s wife, he summoned A'bram and said, the following of which we will see in both verses 18 and 19 of the same chapter:

(18) So Pharaoh called A'bram and said, “What is this you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife? (19) Why did you say, ‘She is my sister,’ so that I took her for my wife? Now then, here is your wife; take her, and go.”

Now we will see the reasoning as to why God did what he had to do. For if God had not caused the plagues to come upon the Pharaoh and his household, he may not have known anything was wrong and or even suspect a thing. The affliction itself led to the discovery that Sar'ai was indeed A'bram’s wife, and not his sister. If Pharaoh had kept Sar'ai, A'bram would not have had a child, son with Sar'ai in fulfillment of God’s promise to him (Genesis 12:2; 17:19). A'bram was indeed in the wrong to lie, and did so because he was in fear of losing his wife and being killed in order for his killer to take hi wife, hence why he had such reasoning and concluded to this plan from the beginning. On the other hand, God YHWH intervened in order to keep His Covenant with A'bram.

Even with all this going down and the conclusion of this ordeal, the Pharaoh returned A'bram’s wife, Sar'ai to him and was pretty much cool with A'bram by providing him protection: 

• Genesis 12:20 -  And Pharaoh gave men orders concerning him, and they sent him away with his wife and all that he had.

Despite A'bram’s own wrongdoing, God worked to fulfill His promise by any means necessary. Soon, A'bram left Egypt with his wife Sar'ai, in addition to the protection provided by the Pharaoh, and added prosperity.

With that being said, this whole chapter tells you from start to finish and gives you the conclusion and even tells you why A'bram did what he did in this passage, he was in fear, in this sense, he was in fear of men who can take his wife by simply killing him, for a dead man cannot do anything to rescue his wife, or any of his household and or belongings.

This passage also serves as a good example of how God sometimes does not intervene in regards to someone’s life, actions made an choices, for it all is part of a bigger situation. We see that God used the affliction of the Pharaoh’s household to bring about good for A'bram. For at times may not always know  exactly as to why bad things do occur, but that doesn't mean that the purpose in such is unfounded. God has and always will have a purpose behind everything that takes place

• Jeremiah 29:11 - For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord [YHWH], plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.

And according to what Apostle Paul taught in,

• Romans 8:28 - And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

In A'bram's case, by means of his reasoning and fear, he unwisely trusted in his own reasoning in order to preserve his life, and he was caught in a deceit of his own doing, caught in a lie. God proved His help to his friend and that He, God YHWH, is the only One with the power to save (save the/His people). We also see God has a greater purpose in all things, which also includes that of suffering. His will is indeed  sovereign, and His Name will most surely be glorified.

As for Genesis 20:11, it points to what was addressed with what took place between A'bram and Sar'ai to the Pharaoh. In chapter 20 of Genesis, you also have to realize also that A'bram, who is now called Abraham was stating what people can do to get what they want, people willing to kill in order to get whatever it is that they want - in short they can make him [is] no more should they choose. A couple of verses prior, his wife, Sar'ai, now known as Sarah, was in captivity by the one named Sarah Abimelech, the King of the City of Ge'rar, to which a similar situation took place as done in Egyptt, but slightly different.

Both Abraham and Sarah took up temporary residence in the city and Abimelech  thought that the couple were both brother and sister. Which resulted in Abimelech taking Sarah to become his wife, but he did not did not touch or defile her. Abimelech was met with warning in a dream and God was the one who gave the warning to Abimelech, which caused the king of Ge'rar to return Sarah to Abraham together with compensation consisting of livestock and slaves and, he also included a thousand shekels of silver as a guarantee of Sarah’s chastity (for Abimelech did not touch and or had relations with Sarah whatsoever). Later on, Abimelech concluded a Covenant for Peace and Mutual confidence with Abraham at Beer-sheva (Beer-sheba), read into this passage fully - Genesis 20:1-18 and 21:22-34.

NOTE: God healed Abimelech and his wife and his slave girls, and they were able to and began having children normally because originally, God had made all the women, from wife to slave girls, in Abimelech's household barren (their wombs have closed; unable to have children) all due to Abraham’s wife, Sarah.

NOTE: The wife-sister narrative was also in regards to Isaac and Abimelech regarding the wife of Issac, Rebekah (Genesis 26:1-33).

FACT: No one is trying to get jumped and killed for their wife, mainly with how things were back in those days.

[Srecko Sostar]

6 hours ago, Witness said:

that Sarah was his sister and not his wife

then maybe for modern people and readers of Bible today would be more acceptable that Abraham clearly said those facts, how Sara is his sister and wife...2  in 1 model  :))

6 hours ago, Witness said:

Gen 18:16-33

perhaps after he experienced Sodom and Gomorrah he changed his feelings and thoughts. But yes, in their case he acting nice.

And as you said, many details are unknown.

Thanks :)   

[Srecko Sostar]

9 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

FACT: No one is trying to get jumped and killed for their wife, mainly with how things were back in those days.

agree :))))

But Revelation 2:10(NW) says: “Do not be afraid of the things you are destined to suffer. Look! the Devil will keep on throwing some of you into prison that you may be fully put to the test, and that you may have tribulation ten days. Prove yourselves faithful even with the danger of death, and I will give you the crown of life.” 

But we are just humans. No matter if someone is Job, Abraham, David, Saul, Peter, JW, Buddhist or Atheist.

[Witness]

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

then maybe for modern people and readers of Bible today would be more acceptable that Abraham clearly said those facts, how Sara is his sister and wife...2  in 1 model  :))

perhaps after he experienced Sodom and Gomorrah he changed his feelings and thoughts. But yes, in their case he acting nice.

And as you said, many details are unknown.

Thanks   

“I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.”  Matt 8:11

To be in the kingdom at all, Abraham would have reached “perfection” just as his Father and Jesus is perfect, reflecting the same love, and following the same decrees fulfilled in Christ.  Matt 5:43-48  It wouldn’t happen overnight, but his heart was already set initially, to serve God and only God.   Abraham lived 175 years and I can imagine those years guided him into the perfect maturity and worthiness to be called a friend of God, by God himself.    God’s judgments are righteous, reliable and true.  He knows the disposition of the heart, and He knows our abilities and desires much better than even we do.  

For the GB, though, who believe they will soon reign in heaven, sitting at the same table as Abraham?  Oh, my. 

Gerrit Loesch, governing body member speaks on JW Broadcast, March 2018: 

“So whom do you trust?  You fully trust in Jehovah, Jesus, and the “faithful slave”. 

“This is not to say that the slave is perfect and never makes mistakes, but Jehovah and Jesus trust the imperfect slave who cares for things to the best of his ability AND WITH THE BEST OF MOTIVES.  Shouldn’t we then trust the imperfect slave as well?”

“To appreciate the extent of Jehovah’s and Jesus’ trust in the faithful slave reflect on what he has promised its members. He has promised the immortality and incorruption. Soon, JUST BEFORE ARMAGEDDON, the remaining members of the slave (governing body) will be taken to heaven.”

 “Since Jehovah God and Jesus Christ COMPLETELY trust the faithful and discreet slave, should we not do the same?”

These men seek their own righteousness, their own standards apart from Christ. Rom 10:3  They “serve” what they have built and expect all JWs to do the same.  Matt 6:24 The words above reflect what is in their heart – to exalt themselves above all other anointed and all JWs.  I find it incredible that JWs can listen to Loesch, and swallow his own judgment of himself before Christ, as TRUTH, forgetting that the position of judge has been given to Christ.  Matt 28:18   Can they not see, the GB are the ones saying "I am the Christ"?  Matt 24:5

Matt 5:20; Matt 3:7-9  

[Space Merchant]

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

agree :))))

But Revelation 2:10(NW) says: “Do not be afraid of the things you are destined to suffer. Look! the Devil will keep on throwing some of you into prison that you may be fully put to the test, and that you may have tribulation ten days. Prove yourselves faithful even with the danger of death, and I will give you the crown of life.” 

But we are just humans. No matter if someone is Job, Abraham, David, Saul, Peter, JW, Buddhist or Atheist.

You do realize Abraham's situation is in the Old Testament? As is his Son, Issac, both Father and Son had to deal with the same person of power,the very reason it is called the wife-sister narrative.

The verse you mention is of the Revelation of John account, and such has taken place well after the New Covenant replaced the Law Covenant, the coming of the Christ, which has been foretold and fulfilled, his death and his resurrection, his ascension and exaltation  and eventually his return. We should forget what the Promised Seed, God's promise to Abraham was all about, or rather what Jesus said in John 8:58.

Abraham, called A'bram at the time was fearful, even feared one taking plunder of his women and he himself being slain, killed as if he was nothing in the middle of nowhere. Furthermore, he took delight in God's promise and wanted to remain so that such may come top pass through his seed. So then, Srecko, what would you have done in Abraham's sandals? Perhaps what would you have done if you were in his Son, Iassac's sandals?

That being said, you'd be surprise of how people rather take death than refuse service to God and his Laws for they know that they will be resurrected on the day that is coming. Atheist do not believe in anything, and they do have fear of death, as if the general public, they themselves do not fear it at times but they fear of those around them who have to deal with their death, mainly family. Buddhist believe in the afterlife, which is false, JWs believe in the resurrection, they're Reforestationist, as for David, Saul, and even Peter, buddy you really need to read into their account.

One of the things of man is that they are and can be fearful, mainly when the tipping point has been reached.

As for the example in question highlighted, a man sees your wife has the most beautiful thing ever but does not know you are married to her, what you have done if you were A'bram or Issac, let alone another situation whereas a man took your wife in the night, not knowing she is your wife.