Is the Governing body still "spirit directed"?

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

.... As for the example in question highlighted, a man sees your wife has the most beautiful thing ever but does not know you are married to her, what you have done if you were A'bram or Issac, let alone another situation whereas a man took your wife in the night, not knowing she is your wife.  - Space Merchant

God caused to be all specifically created (Homo Theocraticus) people.

Samuel Colt made them equal.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

42 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

As for the example in question highlighted, a man sees your wife has the most beautiful thing ever but does not know you are married to her, what you have done if you were A'bram or Issac

what if this most beautiful wife say... "why not, this is most beautiful man i ever seen!"

42 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

let alone another situation whereas a man took your wife in the night, not knowing she is your wife.

perhaps she would scream and by that not be guilty for sex. When some elder in judicial committee ask her did she enjoyed, she can tell, i was so busy with screaming and not have time to enjoy! 

Oh man, buddy.... Abraham sandals are his not mine. :)) "And when Abram heard that his relative had been captured, he assembled the 318 trained men born in his household..."

[Space Merchant]

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

what if this most beautiful wife say... "why not, this is most beautiful man i ever seen!"

According to the Bible:

• Genesis 12:11 - When he was about to enter Egypt, he said to Sar'ai his wife, “I know that you are a woman beautiful in appearance,
• Genesis 24:16 - Now the girl was very beautiful, a virgin who had not had relations with any man. She went down to the spring, filled her jar, and came up again.
• Genesis 26:7 - But when the men of that place asked about his wife, he said, "She is my sister." For he was afraid to say, "She is my wife," since he thought to himself, "The men of this place will kill me on account of Rebekah, because she is so beautiful."
• Genesis 29:17 - Leah had no sparkle in her eyes, but Rachel was shapely and beautiful.

How the Beauty/Beautiful is seen in the Bible:

beautiful, as an outward sign of the inward good, noble, honorable character; good, worthy, honorable, noble, and seen to be so.

And no, the Pharaoh and rulers took interest in women, not men. Sodom and Gomorah is that-a -way → Genesis 18-19.l

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

perhaps she would scream and by that not be guilty for sex. When some elder in judicial committee ask her did she enjoyed, she can tell, i was so busy with screaming and not have time to enjoy! 

And not we shift from Abraham to something entirely different, but it is no surprise to the man of surprises, Sostar. As far as I see, Sarah was not forced to do anything whatsoever, she was in accordance with Abraham's plan for she herself also knew of what God told Abraham, the reason why she was feeling a bit of laughter when God spoke through his angels and questions as to why she find what is said too hard to believe, for a woman of her age, which is read later on in Genesis.

Also I would like to add, rape is not a joke,do not make it out to be as such. Regardless of who done it and who is victim, so I rather not take part in your form of humor.

As for Sarah, you clearly miss the whole meaning and conclusion of the passage from start to finish.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Oh man, buddy.... Abraham sandals are his not mine. :)) 

That is why I told you, what would you have done if you were in Abraham's Sandals. Clearly you were him, you'd put God's purpose and will for Jesus to come on into the earth as a man in jeopardy, given God further regret of why he made man. Moreover, the situation between you and God would be vastly different for he made a promise to you and you failed. That is a huge gamble.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

"And when Abram heard that his relative had been captured, he assembled the 318 trained men born in his household..."

Alas, poor Srrecko Sostar. Did you not read of the very Tribe removed from the fold? The Tribe of Dan and their actions?

That being said, who else you think was able and ready to kill the people of God to begin with?

[Srecko Sostar]

9 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Genesis 26:7 - But when the men of that place asked about his wife, he said, "She is my sister." For he was afraid to say, "She is my wife," since he thought to himself, "The men of this place will kill me on account of Rebekah, because she is so beautiful."

..because she is so beautiful."

yeah... people kill each other because of money, power and beauty

 

[Srecko Sostar]

6 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Also I would like to add, rape is not a joke,do not make it out to be as such. Regardless of who done it and who is victim, so I rather not take part in your form of humor.

What i said is not for purpose of humor, but to show how some WT elders, obviously "under WT spirit guidance" manage such situations.

Very serious, but in sphere of bad humor or irony and bizarreness that is product when 3 male interrogate woman in private/judicial chambers.  

     

[Srecko Sostar]

15 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

So then, Srecko, what would you have done in Abraham's sandals? Perhaps what would you have done if you were in his Son, Iassac's sandals?

Hi again!

Such questions was addressed to me in 1980 when i was put before several military officers in ex Yugoslavia period, for reason of my rejection to accept military service, clothing, equipment and weapons. That ended in 3 years prison/jail. 

So, i really have no wish, no will to answer on same today. 

Or if you like to hear some Bible verses i can find them for you. Only if you would insist. But because i consider you as man who have wide insight on Bible text, i have no doubt how you can guess what verses will fit as answer on that question. :))    

 

[Space Merchant]

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

..because she is so beautiful."

yeah... people kill each other because of money, power and beauty

 

But you brought up Abraham, so why speak of him as such when he was defending both a promise and his wife as well as his life? The verses in both start. passage and conclusion is placed before you and still here you do not see what took place, let alone seeing what God had to do to prevent a promise from even breaking, if such a route continued on it's course, Jesus, the Messiah promised would not have been born and perhaps you and I wouldn't be here right now because of that.

I am glad you marked that highlighted portion because that is what is said in the Bible, let alone the Hebrew people themselves, how they are seen, described and mentioned, etc. You have a lot to learn, Sostar.

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What i said is not for purpose of humor, but to show how some WT elders, obviously "under WT spirit guidance" manage such situations.

Very serious, but in sphere of bad humor or irony and bizarreness that is product when 3 male interrogate woman in private/judicial chambers.  

So what was the point of your last response only for now to bring this up? Perhaps you should re-read your comment and make a better response because if you wanted to say all that, you would have addressed it, and it is a clear attempt to shit convo./dis. as you did before.

Rape is very very serious and you'd have to be very wise with words and not add fuel to the fire for even worse can bring out things of some people, mainly when it comes to dealing with those who had talked to people who are victim, and it happens in ALL spaces, education, religion, etc, some cases be it child on child. Abusers will be punished but attacking everyone as a whole for the actions of one is not going to help you, in fact, it is only make the situation better for those who are the real enemy.

As for the last part, I believe I discuss with you about this before and Mr. Butler and others, as did others who were part of the discussion, therefore, it is a waste to re-post and mention the same thing said months ago for a second time.

Other than that, I am not one for mind games and brief end-sentence giggles, Sostar and you like playing quite a bit of that.

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Hi again!

Such questions was addressed to me in 1980 when i was put before several military officers in ex Yugoslavia period, for reason of my rejection to accept military service, clothing, equipment and weapons. That ended in 3 years prison/jail. 

So, i really have no wish, no will to answer on same today. 

Or if you like to hear some Bible verses i can find them for you. Only if you would insist. But because i consider you as man who have wide insight on Bible text, i have no doubt how you can guess what verses will fit as answer on that question. :))    

I concur, this has nothing to to be equal and or amounting as to what you have said, therefore, somewhat irrelevant. The question in focus is what is said previously: what would you have done in Abraham's sandals? Perhaps what would you have done if you were in his Son, Issac's sandals?

To be more in-depth, you put yourself in A'bram's place and yo are met with the exact promise, the challenges, struggle and position as A'bram, let alone the weight of what God had said to A'bram, you in A'bram's place, a great honor in promise God gives you for from your seed, the Messiah is to come very soon.

This also is in connection with Issac, who is Abraham's Son, so I ask you again:

what would you have done in Abraham's sandals? Perhaps what would you have done if you were in his Son, Isaac's sandals?

Granted with the core of this question being God's Promise, what you yourself would have done?

As for your response, you are speaking of military service and what became of you for your own decision. I do not see you being given a promise, nor having anything to do with a woman, be it if you are married or not, which is unknown, I do not see one in fear of his life, however, those who end up being in the military end up with fear and or is fearful and go nuts at times when they are in conflict and or returning home from conflict.

No one is making wishes, this isn't Major Nelson and his I Dream of Jeannie type of situation. This question is solely biblical, so I do not see the problem. I bring forth this question because of your response to others and what was said to you. You speak of Abraham being a lair, but make no mention of the conclusion to the narrative.

You can spout any bible verse you want, but the fact you didn't understand why Abraham did what he did, how can you be taken seriously?

Regarding the passage

• Why did A'bram lie? To preserve his life.
• What was his lie? Called Sar'ai his sister when really she is his wife.
• Who fancied [took interest in] Sa'rai? The Pharaoh of Egypt.
• How did the Pharaoh find out that Sar'ai? God intervene.
• What did the Pharaoh do? Returned Sar'ai and supplied the couple with resources.
• Why did God intervene? The promise he made to A'bram, which is in connection with what God said in Genesis 3:15.
• Where do these narratives take place? Only in the Book of Genesis, common to the household of Abraham in those ancient times.

This is very basic and elementary.

I believe what you should have said is what is it in the Bible of which you do not understand so that people here can explain it to you, Sostar. You went from Abraham, to Watchtower, to elders, to Military Service to saying you can point out a scripture to tell us when the thing is you need us to tell you what the verse says. But every time when it is explained and or given to you, be it right and or wrong you do not accept it anyways.

And no, we are not talking about a verse that fits an answer, we are talking about accepting the context of a passage and or verse - the question directed towards you in is total reflection of A'bram's position, no one asked you to go treasure hunting in the Bible.

As for biblical verses people do have to explain it to you, regardless of the fact you never accept a verse totally. You stopped at 318 men, but fail to bring to point why 318 men were used. The answer, the Hebrews had enemies that hate them very much and their God of whom they hate. You stated Abraham lied, but fail to see why he did it, the answer, he was in fear for his wife would be taken and the only thing that is coming his way is returning to the dust - being killed, God later intervene because that would break the promise of the seed and put mankind in a very VERY dark state because Jesus would have never come to earth for Mary would not have existed, no Jesus, no Messiah to crush the head of the snake with his heel.

You kill a butterfly in the past, it will effect the future, every heard of the butterfly effect? The cause and effect of such a change, in a biblical standpoint, would be very different.

[Srecko Sostar]

3 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Jesus, the Messiah promised would not have been born and perhaps you and I wouldn't be here right now because of that.

I believe how God can manage things if situation would been changed in case of Abraham ..... to Messiah.  

13 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

You stated Abraham lied, but fail to see why he did it,

Do you agree in this quote (sentence constructed as it is) how Abraham was in fact tell a lie? If you agree, then does it mean how I have to accept the reasons for that and your explanation about his act?

Do you justified Abraham dealing with situation because of possible reasons that he - Abraham consider as good reasons to do so? Or because you today consider his reasons as good reasons for deal with such situation in such way?

24 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I concur, this has nothing to to be equal and or amounting as to what you have said, therefore, somewhat irrelevant

 :))) No problem. I forget how my life is mine not Abraham's  life or someone else's life  :)))) sorry to  your lost  reading time :))))

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

You speak of Abraham being a lair, but make no mention of the conclusion to the narrative.

I think that this man is/was inherited all from Adam and Eve as all other human. So, if you want make me to believe how Abraham never told a lie (half true or some other white lies) that is or it isn't written in the Bible reports, then please do not expect such from me. If you want me to show compassion, understanding for his situation and weakness of flesh that made him act that way, that is something else. 

One politician here in Croatia once said, "I never lie, but sometimes I say untruth, and that is much more polite."

[Space Merchant]

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I believe how God can manage things if situation would been changed in case of Abraham ..... to Messiah. 

Possibly, but not so much, the fact that God intervene in this situation only makes my response, according to the passage itself - correct. If Abraham did perish, there would not be any talk about him, later on at all, there wouldn't be a Tribe of people because Jacob was never born, the Tribe of Judah would not have existed, and there would not be a Messiah, thus making Genesis 3:15 prior to Adam and Eve's disobedience be for nothing. This is the same case with Jesus escaping death by the hands of those who hate him as well as miracle fanatics who wanted to grab and throw Jesus off a cliff, clearly it was not Jesus' time otherwise it would have destroyed what the prophecy regarding the Prophet even met, let alone what Jesus had read to the miracle fanatics who switched up from Happy persons to ALL KILL MODE on the Messiah., and clearly Jesus wasn't having that happen nor did he stick around to find out because it was not his time (Luke 4:16-31).

That would most definitely put more fire in what God had said, that he regretted making man. Perhaps you, me and everyone else would not even be here right now and those who are alive would be at each others necks in full force because nothing of the Spiritual House came forth, and the seed that was suppose to be of Abraham had never came to be.

That is a pretty grim reality that I am happy to say it never came to that and or existed.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Do you agree in this quote (sentence constructed as it is) how Abraham was in fact tell a lie? If you agree, then does it mean how I have to accept the reasons for that and your explanation about his act?

Do you justified Abraham dealing with situation because of possible reasons that he - Abraham consider as good reasons to do so? Or because you today consider his reasons as good reasons for deal with such situation in such way?

Well you yourself said it, you stated it clearly:

On 8/1/2018, Srecko Sostar said: Picture of Abraham and Sara came to me. What spirit guided Abraham when he lied about Sara, how she is his sister and not wife? Is his lie in red field, or he has "theocratic warfare" and not told privileged information to person who is not entitled to hear/know it? :))

You continued on to say the following: 

Abraham did this same lie 2 time - Gen 12

Well, i can see (in chapter 20:11) how Abraham has prejudice that people of different tribe, people, religion are all bad, immoral, without ethics, not honest... how similar with some JW members standpoint on so called "worldly" people, that they are not worth of their society because of similar reasons. 

Second, he has not told people "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth", but his version of tribal and family connections and customs (and such explanation came at the culmination of problem, not at first contact, in the beginning). And this is not even in sphere of WT thesis about "theocratic warfare". Reason is, as he told, fear for his own life. He did not care about Sara's life and her moral integrity, honesty. Not about what will people talking about his God, religion, beliefs. Only about his life - according to text. 

Now you cannot be contradicting yourself as you go forward when your own words is expressed here. What Abraham and Sarah did was indeed a form of Spiritual Warfare for Abraham was worried about two things [A] His life being Sarah being taken, for if you had not notice what this verse(s) had said:

(11) When he was about to enter Egypt, he said to Sarai his wife, “I know that you are a woman beautiful in appearance, (12) and when the Egyptians see you, they will say, ‘This is his wife.’ Then they will kill me, but they will let you live. (13) Say you are my sister, that it may go well with me because of you, and that my life may be spared for your sake.

He did care for his life, yes, and him being alive as to what promise was in store for him, as for Sara, she agreed with his plan for seven she knew, even Abraham knew what a people who does not fear God will do to people, mainly to their reasoning as to what happens to people and they themselves do not want to end up as such, thus both being alive in the process, but the promise still remains.

Plus Sara has total respect for Abraham, even calling him Lord, granted Abraham is above Sarah.

as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

Abraham didn't lack in what he said and was not about prejudice and or hatred of a people, the early people of God had enemies, enemies that seek to kill them on a daily basis and they do not care about the God of Abraham as long as they waste Abraham and or his people, that is what matters to them, and these people have no idea who God is.

Abraham said it best himself in chapter 20 of Genesis, verse 11:

“I did it because I thought, ‘There is no fear of God at all in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife.’

, granted majority of women in the Bible had succumb to Spiritual Warfare, the very reason why people point to Sara, as well as the other women as heroes, to some degree.

Srecko Sostar: Abraham has prejudice that people of different tribe, people, religion are all bad, immoral, without ethics, not honest...

Response: Abraham spoke of people who are enemies of God an these enemies of God seek to kill people who are for God. These enemies have no clue and or any idea who the God of Abraham is and what He has done, they only find out afterwards. Some who are neutral with Abraham's people also didn't really have a clue who the True God is either, enter The Ruler of Gerar.

Srecko Sostar: What spirit guided Abraham when he lied about Sara, how she is his sister and not wife?

Response: Clear what led him to lie in regards to the Pharaoh taking interest in his "so called sister" by his own reasoning he thought a Godless people would kill him the second they realize that him and Sarah are husband and wife. Sarah will be taken, and Abraham will be killed, therefore destroying the Promised Seed (Abrahamic Seed) when a old man, who is God's friend, is struck down by whatever means the Egyptians use to kill people. If you had not noticed, Satan's goal with Adam and Eve was a success, his job would have been much more easier if Abraham was indeed killed, thus the Abrahamic Seed regarding the people and the Messiah would have never taken place. That would have been a very dark and bleak situation and putting God in a position where HIS Promise was done away with due to his adversary. Since Abraham, as well as Sarah, while in Egypt, did survive, God intervene saving the both of them and revealing to the Egyptians that HE is the God of both Abraham and Sarah as well as the God of all men and women of Abraham's people. Issac did the same thing like his Father because he too knew how the people were.

Srecko Sostar: he has not told people "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth", but his version of tribal and family connections and customs (and such explanation came at the culmination of problem, not at first contact, in the beginning).

Response: For if he had told the Egyptians, he would have been killed, and would not be a pretty sight for the so called brother to be among friendly people and sudden being torn apart the second said people became unfriendly. The Egyptians didn't attempt to execute Abraham because they found out who God really is, which prompted the Pharaoh to hand back Sarah, also thwarting a marriage between Sarah and the Pharaoh.

Older times were brutal, yes, but it has nothing to do with Tribal and or Family Connections, as you say, it has to do with people of God being in constant fear of those who hate and or detest God, let alone being unaware of who God is and they are not friendly to Abraham's kind and will deal with them in the worse way possible. According to history, The Egyptians were very violent in killing people, they even kill babies right out of the mother's womb in a grim fashion which is called Infanticide.

NOTE: Baby Moses escaped that fate that to his mother and his sister, Prophetess Miriam (The daughter of Am'ram).

Srecko Sostar: he told, fear for his own life. He did not care about Sara's life and her moral integrity, honesty.

Response: He indeed feared for his life and did what he did due to his reasoning and Sarah herself, was loyal to Abraham and complied with his plan for she and Abe knew about enemies of God. Sarah herself also lied for she never acknowledged her husband Abraham because she knew they'd kill him. And to both Sarah and Abraham, that would put a Promise that is of Covenant level with God obsolete, becoming broken. Therefore, what they did was an act of Spiritual Warfare/Civil Disobedience. This is why many people, mainly women, see Sarah as a Hero, for if she did not comply with her husband, Jesus would have never existed as a man by means of the Abrahmic Seed.

This is why I said before, somewhat, Spiritual Warfare/Civil Disobedience is mainly done by women in the Bible. Sarah is one of them and clearly everyone knows about this.

Srecko Sostar: "theocratic warfare"

Response: It is. Even though the name is different, it is still categorized as Spiritual Warfare/Civil Disobedience. Done by several men in the Bible, the most infamous being Apostle Paul, who enforced it further, but Spiritual Warfare/Civil Disobedience was done by majority of female persons in the Bible, the women.

Srecko Sostar: Only about his life

Response: His life so that the Promise is not Broken and lied due to his own reasoning to protect his life of which he was in fear of losing. The same can be said of Sarah, who knew about the Promise, and complied so that Abraham does not perish, if Abraham dies, the Promise dies for it is by means of his seed, the Promise is moves on forward. The very reason why it is so explicit in the New Testament, namely as to what we see in Galatians or rather, what Jesus said.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Do you justified Abraham dealing with situation because of possible reasons that he - Abraham consider as good reasons to do so? Or because you today consider his reasons as good reasons for deal with such situation in such way??

Both Abraham and Sarah had the same reasoning and it was in good intentions in regards to Spiritual Warfare, and that is to perverse the Promise of the Abrahamic Seed, which we later see in chapter 17. This was the case with Issac and Rebekah as well.

So Spiritual Warfare regarding both couples was justified, in the same sense Johnathan didn't tell his Father about David's location (otherwise David would have been killed instantly), the same way the prostitute, Rehab, didn't let the guards of Jericho know about the spies (otherwise the Spies, Rehab and ALL of her household would have been executed and possibly the very people who sent the spies)

Spiritual Warfare is Spiritual Warfare, anything that puts a shackle on anything in regards to God, and later on in conjunction with hinders what was entrusted to the Church and her people.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

:))) No problem. I forget how my life is mine not Abraham's  life or someone else's life  :)))) sorry to  your lost  reading time :))))

Last I checked, never hear of you speaking of God speaking about what is to come for your offspring, your seed. You used an example that does not really connect with Abraham's situation, the very reason I told you earlier, put yourself in Abraham's shoes and tell me what you would have done, mainly when God's Promise is on you and your wife. You make it seem as this was a difficult answer and went on about military service and being in jail - there is no connection, Sostar, and not only it was irrelevant, despite your own ordeal, it didn't make sense to what was being asked.

Anyways, if it was not a problem, you would not have stated what you said previously and somehow attempt to turn the tables right now. And just as though you seem to be not so keen on some things, it is expected that when it comes to something you cannot bring forth to claim you will not answer it and bring forth something entirely different and or to move away from what is being talked about, this isn't your first rodeo, Sostar and this isn't my first wrangle. As for the other response, I read everything and all things, and that reading has got you to make a "change" elsewhere.

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I think that this man is/was inherited all from Adam and Eve as all other human. So, if you want make me to believe how Abraham never told a lie (half true or some other white lies) that is or it isn't written in the Bible reports, then please do not expect such from me. If you want me to show compassion, understanding for his situation and weakness of flesh that made him act that way, that is something else. 

There is no need to think, last I recall, this situation regarding Abraham and Sarah in Egypt took place many many MANY years after Adam and Eve, so of course they are imperfect also,if they were perfect, perhaps if Abe and Sarah were alive today, they'd be willing to share some wisdom with you, Sostar, I can already picture Abe telling you want went down before Sodom and Gomorrah was dealt with by God.

All giggles aside, I know you love to giggle and smile spontaneously when you response, I never said Abraham never told a lie, I merely stated as to why he did it, and what was the conclusion, if you forgotten already, I briefly went over this in the last page, here is the link:

I really do not expect much from you because regardless of anyone says, granted you seem to be in somewhat of an agreement with someone elsewhere on this topic. For the Bible tells us exactly what the passage conveys, and what is is showing us and the very actions of Abraham himself, as well as his wife, Sarah, who complies and even calls Abraham Lord. Other than that, Abraham and Sarah's reasoning was very clear, and it is very clear what they did was in the realm of Spiritual Warfare/Civil Disobedience.

So in short, you were have open on a specific verse that involved Jesus, you should be very thankful of the couple's actions because you would not have a passage, spoken of by Jesus, to even quote on this forum.

Also for next time when you read a Bible passage, read the WHOLE thing for context, you simply stopped on a point and not understand what is being mentioned for this is not the first time you'd been caught for this.

If you wish to speak of Issac and Rebekah, which is related to Abraham and Sarah's situation (The sister-wife narrative), by all means, say what you need to say.

As for the last part, I do not care about politicians, and using them in what i being talked about here - is absurd and silly. Other than that, would it kill you and or give you despair to not mention the name of a person who made the quote? Cite what ye speaketh Srecko, or thy claim is invalid.

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

I never said Abraham never told a lie, I merely stated as to why he did it,

well, finally you agree with me that he in fact told a lie. :)) thanks

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

As for the last part, I do not care about politicians, and using them in what i being talked about here - is absurd and silly. Other than that, would it kill you and or give you despair to not mention the name of a person who made the quote? Cite what ye speaketh Srecko, or thy claim is invalid.

hehe, but politicians is in group of those who belong to "secular authority" about which Bible spoke how Christian must obey (Romans book) so if you consider self as Christian you should to care about what they have to say, at least to some level. As brief example of that is when Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem in order to obey "secular authority" command. In their case we see how they care about "politicians" :)) and what they say.

quote is from Andrija Hebrang, he was Minister of Health in those time when said this famous quote.

 https://www.jutarnji.hr/vijesti/hrvatska/da-li-je-hebrang-lagao-ili-govorio-neistinu/2828324/

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrija_Hebrang_(sin)