How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?

[Anna]

2 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Mike & Kim, P Asare, J Redwood, Average Joe, B Bowen and Wifibandit.

Well thank you Billy for giving us a list of activist ex-JWs for us to peruse. Know any more? (sarcasm)

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

37 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

You're a push over, it would so work, but I don't swing that way bubba! 😁

Try "Insider" you both seem to have the same gutter brain! 😏

 

[JW Insider]

7 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Mike & Kim, P Asare, J Redwood, Average Joe, B Bowen and Wifibandit.

I appear to be behind the times here.

• Mike & Kim I know of from a video I watched of them on YouTube, where they seemed a bit too silly and flippant (perhaps even tipsy?). But their information was lousy, and they were promoting this idea that elders were destroying necessary CSA evidence, when they were really misinterpreting "good practice" counsel from the WTS about record-keeping.  Maybe they have done their homework on other videos, but I won't waste my time because I don't trust them based on the random one I watched.
• P. Asare I have never heard of.
• John Redwood is related to John Cedars, who is somehow related to Lloyd Evans, as I saw these names on JW Survey. I downloaded that site to read later, but I did read all the headlines from the site, just never got back to it.
• Average Joe I have never heard of.
• Bill Bowen is the former elder who put his face behind "Silent Lambs" which intended to expose CSA crimes among JWs. I understand that Barbara Anderson worked with him to get it started and get it named but that Barbara Anderson didn't trust his motives or his personality and backed away from it. (I have read much of Anderson's site, and the name comes up often when I search Google on several different historical and CSA topics.)
• WiFiBandit sounds very familiar but I do not know from where. (I suspect this is a Jehovahs-Witness forum participant.

I don't care much about the work of most ex-JWs for purposes of testing their claims, or defense against their claims, unless I'm convinced that they have done their homework, and are not prone to taking things out of context. For this reason, I have purchased 2 books from M.J.Penton, 1 from C.O.Jonnson, and 2 from E.C.Gruss. (I also have two books from R.Franz that I picked up online as free pdfs. I also picked up a book called Apostles of Denial from archive.org, which is also from E.C.Gruss.)

Otherwise, I pretty much ignore current online sources because I think they tend to get their info from other sources anyway, and misinterpret or misrepresent what they said. For this reason I won't bother with those who don't do their own work, when it comes to claims we should test for ourselves.

Compared to people who appear to have gone to original sources and documented their work, I'd guess that most of these online personalities are probably just repeating things. Any of them, including the authors I mentioned, might also have had bad motives. We should expect that this taints their own conclusions. But it's worth looking at their work, especially if a lot of it is true, regardless of their own motives or conclusions. Perhaps we'll look at the same evidence and come to a different conclusion.

[Srecko Sostar]

8 hours ago, Anna said:

On the other hand, I wonder what actual good does it do to know?

to disturb us

to put us in uncomfortable zone

to make us suspicious

to loose faith in .... human and perhaps in god

to make us to think

to open possibility how we based our believes on false ideas

....etc 

 

[JW Insider]

13 hours ago, Anna said:

The thing is, many would rather not know. At least that's how it appears to me. On the other hand, I wonder what actual good does it do to know?

Truth means "the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." Not whitewashed, partial truth, and not just the "spin" that tickles our ears.

That's everyone's own business whether they would rather know the whole truth, or ignore the truth, or assume that others can and should prioritize for them what they need to know as "the truth."

But, for me, I think we would be hypocrites to sing songs like we just did this last week. (Make the Truth Your Own), the comments on Colossians 2:8, etc., etc. Most of our meetings contain small reminders that we need to "love" truth. It shouldn't matter where it takes us. Actually, it should matter. And it should matter, even more, that some people don't want us to go where it takes us. 

It's difficult for most of us to admit that the "Watchtower religion" has been a cult in the past. (In the more pejorative sense of the word.) The Watchtower publicly admits that this is true, claiming that many of the Bible Students were cult worshipers of Charles Taze Russell. We know that Rutherford said he determined to rid the Watchtower of the personality cult that worshiped Russell. He called this "creature worship" because they were worshiping a man. But we also know that, for many years, Rutherford himself was part of the same cult, and even bragged in 1916 that Russell's enemies would soon have to come and "worship at his feet."

But, in general, I think Rutherford finally did a pretty good job replacing the cult members with persons who were looking for practical Bible truth, and not just for a man to do their thinking for them. But many persons, even Watchtower writers, have confused God and the earthly organization. And, this idea might surprise many, but I think that F.W.Franz gave evidence that he remained as a "cult" member until he died. He loved being seen as the the primary Rabbi --The ORACLE, they called him-- and it went to his head as he tried for his entire career to revive interest in dates, chronology, numerology, Jubilees, new truths (prophetic interpretations), parallel dispensations, the pre-eminence of the truly anointed, etc. I think his influence created cult members out of several ordinary Witnesses. I believe that my great-grandfather (from even before F.Franz was at Bethel) was a "cult" member in the organization until the 1960's when he died, even though my other relatives were (and are) regular JWs, and not cult members. I'm pretty sure that C.Woodworth was a cult member until the 1950's when he died. I know that when they searched out documentation and photos for the Proclaimer's book, they were astounded at the "cult" material still available in Witnesses' archives, including F.Franz himself.

And many Witnesses, today, are tempted to look at 8 men exactly the way that Bible Students looked at Russell. The way we defend or dismiss the material from our past history can be an indicator as to whether we too have succumbed to cult thinking. Even the way we defend current material that came out of long-standing traditions of the past can also be an indicator. I can talk to Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists for hours and recognize almost immediately which ones are in a "cult" and which ones aren't by the manner in which they defend Ellen G White or Joseph Smith when glaring problems are pointed out.

• (Job 31:26-28) ²⁶ If I saw the sun shining Or the moon moving in its splendor; ²⁷ And my heart was secretly enticed, And my mouth kissed my hand in worship of them; ²⁸ Then that would be an error deserving punishment by the judges, For I would have denied the true God above.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

 

 

There are people who have spent their whole lives in prison ... and when they get out ... freedom scares them so badly, they commit more crime for the sole reason to be convicted and GO BACK to prison, where they are surrounded with what they have become comfortable with.

As a small boy, I maintained that Santa Clause was real, long after I knew he was not .... because although I did not believe in Santa, I believed in presents!

Truth scares many people who have integrated a web of lies into their lives ... and they resist it and vilify it as it shakes the web and they are afraid of falling away.

So ... they wait until the spider comes, and eats them, secure in the knowledge of their noble sacrifice.

 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

49 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

To disturb us

to put us in uncomfortable zone

Huh. I posted a reply in another thread to someone who also writes in purple, and it fits better here than it does there:

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Science is constantly changing ... and physics and chemistry and nuclear science, astronomy and everything else becomes more refined as time goes on.

But when a scientific fact or principle is discovered or refined, they do not attribute the constant changes to inspiration from God, direction from God, and authority from God TO ENFORCE THOSE NEW CONCEPTS, under threat of banishment.

A good example is the United States Marines .... everyone is flawed, and sometimes even more so the Officers ... and the work they do involves sacrifice, and life, and death.

BUT THEY DO NOT CLAIM AUTHORITY FROM ALMIGHTY GOD.

The same holds true with physicists, chemists, quantum scientists, astronomers, and a host of other's who learn as they go along.

BUT THEY DO NOT CLAIM AUTHORITY FROM ALMIGHTY GOD ...  and on the basis of that claim, collect sycophants, minions, and piles and piles of free money!

Those claiming authority and direction, and guidance from God, and have the power to ruin your life if you do not agree with them, MUST BE HELD TO A HIGHER STANDARD ....  or with a religiously inspired revelation and with great joy and happiness ..... we drink the grape kool-aid.

 

[JW Insider]

30 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

A good example is the United States Marines .... everyone is flawed, and sometimes even more so the Officers ... and the work they do involves sacrifice, and life, and death.

BUT THEY DO NOT CLAIM AUTHORITY FROM ALMIGHTY GOD.

Really? Everything possible must be tried in order to make a cult out of the U.S.Marines in as short a time as possible. It includes the idea that they can claim authority from Almighty God, Jehovah. And notice the "Ezekiel" video playing, too.

 

I have a little more respect for the ones who are not participating.

[TrueTomHarley]

50 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

James, far be it from me to insult your mother as my mother has been insulted by you and ?Winsider that Melinda, comfortmypeople, Anna, Outta Here seem to think is funny, which is a disgusting unchristian act by the way, but if you personally and directly think that about your own, far be it from me to dispute your claim.

I scan these posts quickly to make sure that I am not on the current list of villains. If I am not, then I’m good.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Well it’s good to know you know most of the scumbags that subscribe to garbage truth.

I know them about as well as you know them. Doesn't mean I agree with their conclusions. If someone is serious about their research, I'll take it seriously, too. I called the WTS with questions on several occasions when working through the claims being made by outsiders about the JW era in Hitler's Germany, and both Brother H.Peloyan and Brother J.Pellechia said they didn't know the answers, exactly, but pointed me to a book by M.James Penton, with a reminder that although he answers the questions I had, that this doesn't mean we need to subscribe to all of his conclusions. I agree with them, and appreciated their honesty. I bought Penton's book about Jehovah's Witnesses in the Third Reich specifically on the recommendation of Brother Pellechia.

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

That’s a pie in the face for your most loyal subject and devotee

I think you are at least 100 times more "devoted" to everything I say than Anna.

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Another point of your hypocrisy since you keep insisting that people should challenge the Watchtower teachings to see if they speak the truth

I agree with the Watchtower which also has said many times that we should challenge the Watchtower teachings to see if they speak the truth. If you disagree, then you are simply disagreeing with the Watchtower. That should not be a problem to anyone, if you have good Biblical reasons, but in this case the Watchtower agrees with the Bible.

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

you misrepresent the Watchtower literature just like the scumbags you know so well

If that were true, you should have been able to show me at least one case where I did that. So far, you've shown no evidence of any misrepresentation.

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

That also makes you a liar about not caring what these people have to say

Remember, however, that this is about what the Watchtower publications have had to say. I have noticed, for example, that the Watchtower, for a time, confused the end of the Gentile Times with October 1914, then posited dates as late as October 1915, then August 1914, then back to October 1914, and then in the 1920's the Watchtower began presenting material that claimed Russell had made an announcement at Bethel on October 1st, then October 4th, then October 2nd. However, I had never noticed one of the Watchtower quotations that was pictured (in context) in the material that @Noble Berean presented. Where I can learn something, I'm always happy to learn.

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

while commenting if NB know the source of his post, which he confused with his other avatar.

Funny how you don’t seem to have a problem with that, or mention it, but you insist that I am AllenSmith34. Another indicator of your deceptive traits and human conditioning.

That's because I recognized instantly that you were flat out wrong about @Matthew9969 being the same as @Noble Berean. There was absolutely no evidence for it and a lot of evidence against it. However, I think I know exactly why you made the mistake in thinking so yourself. If you're interested, I can help you understand.

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

You seem to insinuate today's Watchtower does the same.

I insinuated exactly the opposite. That this cultish behavior was already generally cleaned up way back in Rutherford's time, with lingering influences from some who never seemed to completely cleanse themselves from the ideologies of that period.

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

You talk a big game about “TRUTH” when you dishonestly talk falsehoods about the Watchtower.

All you have to do is point out one of these falsehoods or dishonesties and I will immediately change my mind about it and apologize. As I said, you've had four years of opportunities. I'm sure I've made several mistakes in that time period.

• (Proverbs 10:19) 19 In the abundance of words there does not fail to be transgression,. . .

 

[JW Insider]

44 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

my mother has been insulted by you and ?Winsider

I should just point out that this is another type of dishonesty you engage in frequently. Whenever you are asked to point out the place or occasion which induced you to come up with this false claim, you have always changed the subject. You know that I have never made a reference your mother in any way, shape or form. Any further attempt to promote such dishonesty will be met with more honest words from me, no matter how much the truth hurts. 😀