Would you like to know the truth about Hell?

[BroRando]

That's was actually a pretty good response. However, I stand by  what I stated earlier that, "Jesus never spoke about (Hell).'   Both hades and hell were later additions into the scriptures.  It's not a difficult thing to find the word that was replaced by hades and hell.  One simply has to find the scripture.  In researching the teachings of Jesus, there are no scriptures that contain hades or hell in them.

So now, we are forced to look into corrupted scripture to find the truth, what was struck out of the Bible and replaced with pagan dogma.

So let's do just that: When I showed this following scripture to my Catholic Priest, he turned red and lit a cigarette. I asked why does the Bible show that "the Dead are Conscious of Nothing"? (Ecc 9:5)  Yet, you teach the dead are still alive and in Hades and Hell and suffering for all eternity?  I don' t get, if Jesus is the Resurrection then how can hades and hell be eternal? 

"And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done." (Rev 20:13 ESV)

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." (Rev 20:13 KJV)

"The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds." (Rev 20:13 NLT)  Some translations still have some remanence of truth in it. The truth can easily be backed by other scriptures.

"Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out," (John 5:28)  What??? Finally the truth!!

The fact, is the pagan insertions of hades and hell diluted the teaching of Jesus Christ and it gets people to deny the Resurrection. Hades and Hell replaced "the grave" and to believe anything else is from satan.  

 

[Evacuated]

3 hours ago, Brother Rando said:

Hades and Hell replaced "the grave"

I'm aware and fully in agreement with all the arguments on why the concept of Hades or Hell as place where "dead" people actually live and are punished is a total fabrication.

What I am trying to understand is your point on the replacement of the original language word in both LXX and Christian Greek scriptures

Your response is that:

3 hours ago, Brother Rando said:

 It's not a difficult thing to find the word that was replaced by hades and hell.

But you do not specifically say what that word actually was. Are you suggesting that the original LXX translators and the Christian Greek Scripture writers originally used the Greek word for grave (taphos) wherever appropriate and that, subsequently, this was spuriously replaced with the Greek word Hades?

[Shiwiii]

21 hours ago, JW Insider said:

If both terms can mean destruction, I can't tell if you distinguish in the same way between Hades and Gehenna. Naturally, I think it makes a lot of sense that Revelation shows Death and Hades thrown into a "Gehenna" (lake of fire), which is a fitting symbolism for the final destruction of Death and the Grave, through resurrection and the potential of eternal life, where the only type of death that remains is total destruction, a second death.  When I first noticed that the 2013 Revised NWT was going to begin translating "Ha'des" as "Grave," I quickly rushed over to Matthew 10:28 to see if Gehenna might appear as "Destruction" with a capital "D."

With this in mind, some have translated Matt 23:15 with

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. -- NKJV

If this term "Gehenna" had become "Destruction" the verse could have read: "you make him twice as much a son of Destruction as yourselves" and then it would match the idea of persons like Judas and a person like the Antichrist.

(John 17:12) 12 When I was with them, I used to watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me; and I have protected them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction, so that the scripture might be fulfilled.

(2 Thessalonians 2:3) 3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.

It would mesh well with other Biblical references.

(Revelation 9:11) 11 They have over them a king, the angel of the abyss. In Hebrew his name is A·badʹdon [Destruction], but in Greek he has the name A·polʹlyon [Destroyer].

(Matthew 10:28) . . .fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna.

Do you believe that the "torment" is only at the time of facing destruction? You mention 2 Peter where the word is Tartarus a word known from Greek mythology, and already used in the OT LXX (e.g., Job) a prison of darkness for the lesser gods/spirits. These spirit creatures are said to be alive and waiting in prison for the judgment. Do you believe that the "spirit" of humans who await resurrection also include those who will be resurrected to judgment? If so, do you think those spirits can be in a kind of "torment" while waiting, or do they possibly feel the "torment" after Hades is destroyed?

The torment is self inflicted, a disappointment in one's own self to the extent of torment. So this is not God administering torment, but the person themselves in their frustration of seeing the impending result of their actions while here on Earth (2 Cor 5:10). This, I'm sure, will lead us into another direction in this conversation, but I'll try to stay on point.  Those that await resurrection to righteousness are not found in this same place.....(topic is on hell) lol. Those awaiting the second death will remain "in chains", "in outer darkness" until the day of judgement, and until then they will self impose torment. Think of the most inhuman thing man can do to another man, isolation, it fosters insanity/madness. 

Destruction, is an interesting word choice I think. Our English language is really difficult at times. The second death in my opinion would be the "destruction" and that too would fit equally in your association above. The problem is that something cannot be destroyed twice, or it was never destroyed in the first place. So the term destruction substituted for hell, while it works, it doesn't convey the actual meaning. So I think that is why there are other descriptions of hell in scripture (Matt 22:13, Matt 25:30) that speak about a continual place until an appointed time. It is only temporary until it is cast in the lake of fire, but leading up to that time it is continuous. Now some will come and say that those verses are not speaking of hell....ok....I believe they are by means of context. 

[JW Insider]

24 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

This, I'm sure, will lead us into another direction in this conversation, but I'll try to stay on point.

It's my guess that talk of how the "torment" works would still be on point.

25 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

The second death in my opinion would be the "destruction" and that too would fit equally in your association above. The problem is that something cannot be destroyed twice, or it was never destroyed in the first place

I wasn't sure how aware you were of the different definitions we (JWs) give to Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus. Second death is the lake of fire which would then be the same as Gehenna. Those were the only terms to which we would have applied the meaning of "Destruction." Death and the Grave (Hell) would be pretty much the same thing, and therefore the Grave (Hell) is NOT "destruction." That's why there can be a resurrection, whether of righteous or unrighteous. The Grave is not final destruction, second death or Gehenna is.

[BroRando]

18 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Are you suggesting that the original LXX translators and the Christian Greek Scripture writers originally used the Greek word for grave (taphos) wherever appropriate and that, subsequently, this was spuriously replaced with the Greek word Hades?

The Original Greek Scriptures of the New Testament are missing , hidden or destroyed.  And copies of them from the second to the seventh century seemed to be misplaced, hidden, or destroyed. I can't say with certainty that the LXX translators even knew what they were doing.  However, we have 20/20 onsight by backing into scriptures and able to connect the dots how Christendom traditions seeped in.   For example the Johanna Comma.  It's not found in the scripture until the 11 century.  That's a whole lot of time that went by don't you think?  It was first mentioned in handing writing as a 'note' in the 8th Century,  it became part of the scripture around the 11th century?  What's Up???

Do the  LXX translators have the understanding of Sheol and the pit as the grave?  I really can't answer that, but I would assume the answer is in the negative since many translators falsely claimed Sheol was hell in the second century.  What I can say with certainty, is that the LXX translators had no idea what the Valley of Hinnom was, nor what it represented.   

In this case, a person has to understand the Lie before they can move on to the truth. Sheol and the pit are mankind's common grave.  

[BroRando]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The second death in my opinion would be the "destruction" and that too would fit equally in your association above.

Correct, the second death is an everlasting death, destruction that is everlasting. (Jude 7)  For instance Sodom and Gomorrah underwent a fiery destruction. If you went to Sodom and Gomorrah today are they still burning? No, they have been utterly destroyed, annihilated never to be rebuilt.  

Notice how this demon reacted when he noticed the Son of God. "But on catching sight of Jesus from a distance, he ran and bowed down to him.  Then he cried out with a loud voice: “What have I to do with you, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I put you under oath by God not to torment me.” (Mark 5:6-7)  

The lake of fire, (Valley of Hinnom) is reserved for satan and his demons.  It's symbolism for everlasting cutting off.   Let's get this understanding out there before I address Tartarus

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Is Tartarus like Limbo?

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, Brother Rando said:

LXX translators were members of Christendom

???

[Evacuated]

5 hours ago, Brother Rando said:

LXX translators were members of Christendom

Are you sure about this? Maybe I should not have abbreviated. LXX is the standard abbreviation for the Septuagint Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures.  It was produced by Alexandrian Jews, (72 originally, hence the name), evidently beginning during the reign of Ptolemy (II) Philadelphus (285-246 B.C.E.). It was completed around 150BCE, so would appear to predate Christendom. Perhaps you meant 2nd Century copyists?

Regardless of this, I deduce from your reply that you are saying it is not possible to know with any certainty what word in Greek was used by the inspired Bible writers to correspond to the Hebrew word Sheol. This is because there is no actual evidence of Septuagint (LXX) manuscripts other than those already corrupted with the insertion of Hades as a spurious alteration to the correct Greek translation of the Hebrew word Sheol (If indeed it was even translated).

Additionally, fabricators have also inserted the Greek word Hades into the Christian Greek Scriptures, obscuring whatever word was used originally by inspired writers quoting the Septuagint or when translating the words of Jesus Christ . And for all of this, no original, untampered with documents remain of either source, all having been hidden, lost, or destroyed, along with any ancient reference to this scheme.

Have I understood you correctly?

[Shiwiii]

9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Is Tartarus like Limbo?

 

I don't believe so. The reason why is, in a limbo state one is sitting and waiting with no idea of direction. I liken limbo and purgatory as the same and I don't subscribe to that idea. 

[BroRando]

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

were members of Christendom

Did I say that?   I was thinking of the Latin Vulgate and its translators were members of Christendom.  The LXX translators were all Jewish, it was the Latin Vulgate that was riddled with mistakes.  

[BroRando]

The LXX translators actually had a good handle on transliteration, especially when coming to (Isaiah 6:9)  The evidence is pretty much wiped out though.  The term for Wonderful Counselor once read 'Angel of Great Counsel' and Eternal Father read Father of the New Age.

Did they actually  know that the Messiah that was prophesied about, was the Angel of Wisdom that would build the Temple of God? 

"Wisdom has built her house, she has hewn out her seven pillars:" (Proverbs 9:1 KJV)

"As for the sacred secret of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars mean the angels of the seven congregations, and the seven lampstands mean the seven congregations." (Rev 1:20)

Only those with an honest heart can gain understanding, for the wicked know not.  "Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end.  Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand." (Daniel 12:9-10)