Would you like to know the truth about Hell?

[BroRando]

9 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Are you sure about this? Maybe I should not have abbreviated. LXX is the standard abbreviation for the Septuagint Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. 

No, I was thinking of the Latin Vulgate,  I should have not mentioned  the Latin Vulgate when speaking about the LXX translators ....  they were Jewish, translating Hebrew into Greek.  They had no qualms about placing the Hebrew Tetragrammaton into the Greek scriptures, however, they refused to transliterate the Hebrew Tetragrammaton into other languages.   Here's some proof  from a fragment from the LXX translators that was recently found.  They are called the Dead Sea Scrolls.  If one is given insight, you see The Tetragrammaton in Hebrew, also Greek, and then replaced with LORD then the English Rendition (Jehovah). 

[BroRando]

18 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Destruction, is an interesting word choice I think. Our English language is really difficult at times. The second death in my opinion would be the "destruction" and that too would fit equally in your association above.

Got it.  Our English language is rather crude at times lacking meaning and intent.  But let's keep in mind that the translators replaced (the grave) with hades and hell. So keep that in mind in order to realize what the author was saying.  

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. (Rev 20:14 NIV) 

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:14 KJV)

Then, one must ask, is death, hades, and hell going to be tormented or be destroyed?  Afterall the second death is everlasting destruction never to be brought back.  What is the scripture is actually saying?  "Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death." (Rev 20:14 NLT)

Can you burn death, hades, or hell or it is symbolism having a different meaning?  "And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” (Rev 21:4)
 

 

[BroRando]

Now on to (Torment).  Jesus doesn't torment anyone to say otherwise is inaccurate and an untruth about Jesus Christ.  The audience Jesus was addressing were the same ones grieving the Holy Spirit. In the Book of Revealing we find, "But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and the sexually immoral and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This means the second death.” (Rev 21:8)

There's a segment of people getting the Good News about God's Kingdom, yet rejecting it, therefore grieving the Holy Spirit. Once that sin against Holy Spirit is counted, it's unforgivable. "Truly I say to you that all things will be forgiven the sons of men, no matter what sins they commit and what blasphemies they speak.  But whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever but is guilty of everlasting sin.” (Mark 3:28-29)

"but whosoever shall speak injuriously against the Holy Spirit, to eternity has no forgiveness; but lies under the guilt of an everlasting sin;" (Mark 3:29 Darby)

When a person is counted 'wicked' they are not among those who will be resurrected. Those 'wicked' self imposed a torment that makes them to begin the weeping and gnashing of teeth.  They will seek for the truth but the truth will be hidden from them. In speaking with his disciples Jesus explained, "That is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations; for looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, nor do they get the sense of it." (Matthew 13:13)

Such ones are already entering into the second death, they look in vain but will not get the sense of it.  Such ones are tormented forever for they will die in that state of never learning and yet they seek but a person who has been counted 'wicked' cannot escape the darkness that engulfs them.  They in turn, seek others who believe and try to convince them not too......they are dying an everlasting death in the same manner as Adam and Eve....  never to be Resurrected.    However, for those who listen Death itself will be DESTROYED.

 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Rather than dissect a million words whose source is ambiguous, or accuracy lost or obscured by the sands of time ... I have found that plain old common sense (... which apparently is not all that common...), will clarify many things ... in everyday life, and in Theology.

1.) Can a God of Love, and who loves Justice, torture someone forever? NO.

2.) Would a Sovereign God allow his disobedient children to be tormented forever by his Arch Enemy, forever?  NO.

You can fill in items 3.) through 20+.) yourself .... what would a rational, thinking being do?

I have no problems torturing someone to extract information to save lives, etc. but if some terrorist exploded an atom bomb in Charlotte, NC, as an example, torture would serve no purpose. ... AFTER THE FACT.

Torture is ONLY torture, if the INTENT is to torture .... just as first degree murder is completely different than an accidental homicide. In both instances someone died.

That fine point may be, however, lost on the recipient, such as the Japanese soldiers that were incinerated to death on Iwo Jima with flame throwers, or the children who were burned to death in Hiroshima and Nagasaki with atomic bombs, August 1945.

Intent makes ALL the difference! (..although perhaps not to the person(s) who died.).

You can have a God who is an insane, sadistic, petulant monster .... or you can have one that personifies Love and Justice, and righteousness ...... but NOT the same one.

That is why there CANNOT be a hell of torment ... and in a Universe where individual mankind  will eventually live forever, for those that understand that .... .. simple death is the Ultimate Torment.

[BroRando]

Amen. Torture after the fact of death is a man-made doctrine.  Hades and Hell are doctrines from Christendom wrongly inserted in the Bible.  Hades, hell, and the grave are interchangeable.  Simply insert the grave where hades and hell was inserted and the truth will come out like a Champion!    Anyways, "death' was the punishment not to give someone who disobeyed a gift of everlasting life just to be tortured.  

Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction.  But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.” (Genesis 2:16-17)

Satan is the one who lied,  At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die." (Genesis 3:4)

"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19)

 

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Torture is ONLY torture, if the INTENT is to torture .... just as first degree murder is completely different than an accidental homicide.

Just thought I'd point out that this is wrong, imo. I would think the following is more accurate:

Torture is ALWAYS torture, whether there was intent to torture or not. A person tortured through an accidental one-minute dip in carbolic acid is just as tortured as the one who was purposefully dipped for one minute in carbolic acid. The person who was purposefully tortured prior to a bombing because he might have information about it, can be tortured just the same as the one who goes through the ordeal after exploding the bomb.

Also, torture is still torture no matter what the intent, just like homicide is still homicide, even if one is accidental and the other is first-degree premeditated.

Torture is also wrong. God has allowed it, but my God, who is slow to anger and merciful, would not allow something he cannot completely reverse the effects of. 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I was speaking ONLY to the specific legal and moral culpability for torture .... When the Americans incinerated the Japanese, on the battlefields or in their cities... the intent was NOT to torture ... but to kill. 

(And as an aside, because the Americans were attacked first, the RESPONSE was self-defense, NOT murder.... The responsibility for all the deaths on BOTH sides of the conflict rests with the Japanese Military High Command, and with all those that gave their allegiance and support to that Empire.)

OF COURSE they were tortured to death .... but the persons killing them had no INTENT to torture them ... just to destroy their ability to wage war, in justifiable self-defense. 

No legal culpability.

This is why today, it is recognized under the Geneva Convention, that napalming someone from aerial bombardment is legal (in warfare), but dousing them with gasoline and setting them on fire is a war crime ... IF the intent is to cause them pain.

Legal and moral CULPABILITY for torture is ONLY torture, if the INTENT is to torture ....

I strongly suspect that bullets tearing pieces out of someone and punching big bloody holes in flesh is no picnic.

If I tortured someone to save lives, my INTENT would be to torture them ... OF COURSE.

.

[JW Insider]

2 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

(And as an aside, because the Americans were attacked first, the RESPONSE was self-defense, NOT murder.... The responsibility for all the deaths on BOTH sides of the conflict rests with the Japanese Military High Command, and with all those that gave their allegiance and support to that Empire.)

Yes, "War is hell!" which makes the above quote only a little bit off topic. Still, fwiw, it might be fun to take up this idea you just made and see how much of it holds up to common sense.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

OK ... I gave it my best shot already .... but I have been known to beat a dead horse .. which of course is NOT torture.

I just got back from Golden Corral where I chewed parts of a dead cow into mush.

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, Brother Rando said:

Here's some proof  from a fragment from the LXX translators that was recently found.  They are called the Dead Sea Scrolls.

There were no Dead Sea Scrolls in any of the fragments you showed.

[JW Insider]

3 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

but I have been known to beat a dead horse .. which of course is NOT torture.

[BroRando]

LOL.... ya, that's hades and hell... beating a dead horse.  Here's info on the Dead Sea Scrolls and a Picture containing God's Name.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/appendix-a/tetragrammaton-divine-name/