CAN WE SPOT A LOST SHEEP ?......

[b4ucuhear]

13 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

.. because "Guardians of the Doctrine" ALWAYS forget that the acronym G.O.D.  does not make them  .....  GOD.

It bugs me when people act like they are worshiping an organization (the creation) rather than our Creator. It makes us seem cultish. Yes, respect and obedience to his "channel" has always been an integral part of our worship and relationship with Jehovah - even as Moses and Aaron were Jehovah's representatives. But if you were around at that time and saw Aaron making that golden calf, would you have thought you were being obedient to theocratic authority by bowing down to it? We shouldn't treat any human as a god. We shouldn't suspend our "clear thinking faculties" and hand them over to someone else because among other things not all men are who they appear to be. "Imposters...wolves in sheep's clothing...apostates..." we've had them all and still do. 

[Anna]

On 7/24/2017 at 0:52 PM, JW Insider said:

Similar to what @PeterR said, my opinions are expressed here as a "thought experiment" for anyone to consider and respond to.

Maybe I just couldn’t see the point of this experiment.....all I see is what I have already read from some ex-JWs , especially one  ex GB member  who made it seem like reporting field service created selfish, status climbing, bureaucratic butt kissers (pardon the expression). He was right to a small extend, this did apply to a few, but for the most part, those few are no longer JWs . If you are "slaving" for Jehovah for the wrong reason, it doesn’t last. You don't need to see what would happen if you stopped reporting, true motives become apparent sooner or later regardless. That was my point.

On 7/24/2017 at 0:52 PM, JW Insider said:

 but counting hours is not the only motivation in keeping up the "status" of being a pioneer. It's the accolades from men that go with the title. The same could also be said of appointed elders, and ministerial servants, and the various types of overseers in the organization

Yes, I agree,  and it does get on my nerves when I hear such expressions as  “so many years in time in full time service" etc. as if these persons are somehow better than someone who is like the widow. But we all know that is not true. If we place too much stock on what others think then obviously that is foolish, because it is ultimately what Jehovah thinks that counts, and he knows our hearts and circumstances. Those who elevate themselves or others because of "titles" well, that's their problem....in the end they too will stand in front of Jehovah and render an account, regardless of what title they have.

[Anna]

On 7/24/2017 at 1:17 PM, ComfortMyPeople said:

I have witnessed (as secretary) the brother's embarrassment when delivering a very low report, only that month had problems.

Hahaha, just a couple of weeks ago, when reporting my hours for last month to our group elder (a good friend as well) I told him how embarrassing my report was. I wasn't beating myself up over it though,  I had my parents in town and there just wasn't the time like usual as we were making day trips to show them around etc. He told me his weren't much better as he had been on vacation for two weeks

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Maybe I just couldn’t see the point of this experiment.....all I see is what I have already read from some ex-JWs , especially one  ex GB member  who made it seem like reporting field service created selfish, status climbing, bureaucratic butt kissers (pardon the expression). He was right to a small extend, this did apply to a few, but for the most part, those few are no longer JWs .

I can guess who you mean, but I don't remember reading anything like that from his first book, which I must have read at least 80% of. I never read his second book, but I have skimmed portions. Was this from one of those books, or a later interview?

The reason I ask is that when you first mentioned the "free riders" I was about to respond to the following quote (see quote below) with just "Interesting theory."

On 7/24/2017 at 0:01 PM, Anna said:

Essentially, free riders eventually become nominal Witnesses at best, or totally inactive or disfellowshipped at worst.

The reason I was so tempted to answer this flippantly is because (even if you were right) I was also pretty sure that these were the ones who rose to the very top of the food chain at Bethel, and I don't mean the "spiritual" food chain, even if that's how most of us want to see it. Those who turned their ministry skills into public speaking skills became almost totally inactive or unenthusiastic about any part in the ministry outside of "full-time bureaucratic service." In a very unofficial capacity, I visited just about every branch in Europe in 1978 and 1980. Between those same years, all the branch overseers from around the world visited Brooklyn in several sets, and we not only heard most of them speak, we also sat with them and talked to them at meals, and hosted some in our NYC congregations and even helped host meals for some in local NYC congregations.

Naturally, many were just amazingly full of love and encouraging experiences. You just wanted to go back to their country with them and share the joy. But I have also never met so many cold bureaucrats who never wanted to go from door-to-door again in their life. Also, the current brothers who are named "Helpers" of the Governing Body, well, most of these were working their way up the bureaucratic and political ladders at Bethel in 1980 and the personality similarities among many of them. I shouldn't say, so I won't.

Brothers that I admired at Bethel were the ones who were obviously still active in the "field" even if this seemed incongruent with their assignments at Bethel. My wife and I both loved Brother Rusk dearly, because he was a loving, fatherly type who would do anything for you, and he continued to conduct Bible studies with interested persons from the start right up to the point of baptism, without reminding them that he was also the Watchtower editor or the blood-transfusion expert. Other brothers, including several of my friends who had been on the Aid Book project, and who were the most productive at writing Watchtower articles and "Book-Study" publications, worked closely with brothers in their foreign language congregations, and juggled their work in Writing with a lot of responsibility and work at all levels in their local congregation. For years, I had respect for R.Franz for the same reason. It was well known that he had this unassuming humility that allowed him to work actively in his current Spanish congregation in much the same way he had done while in missionary work in the Dominican Republic. I'd be surprised if he didn't put in "auxiliary pioneer" hours while handling his assignments on the Governing Body and in Writing. And yet, a brother I worked for who was also on the Governing Body would NEVER go out in service until, several years after I left, he became nearly invalid and confined to a wheelchair, and then his wife started to wheel him around Brooklyn Heights with a couple of magazines pinned to him. 

[Anna]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Was this from one of those books, or a later interview?

It was from his second book, which like you, I merely skimmed over, but I seem to recall that particular part whenever issues about reporting field service and "legalism"  come up, since he devotes an entire chapter to that subject.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

The reason I ask is that when you first mentioned the "free riders" I was about to respond to the following quote (see quote below) with just "Interesting theory."

Actually, the idea and the term I got from an essay by Rodney Stark and some other guy. I don’t think the authors had your interpretation in mind (“ that these were the ones who rose to the very top of the food chain at Bethel, and I don't mean the "spiritual" food chain” ) They were referring more to someone who is not entirely serious about the religion especially the spiritual side of it. But what you say is interesting and unfortunately, as your experience shows, true.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Also, the current brothers who are named "Helpers" of the Governing Body, well, most of these were working their way up the bureaucratic and political ladders at Bethel in 1980 and the personality similarities among many of them. I shouldn't say, so I won't.

Ahem.....I hope you are wrong. I hope their climb was a spiritual one,  because by your own admission you say that things have changed for the better in the last 20 years.  I have my favourites in the “helpers”, although I don’t know them personally, they seem like good genuine brothers.

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, Anna said:

Ahem.....I hope you are wrong. I hope their climb was a spiritual one,  because by your own admission you say that things have changed for the better in the last 20 years.  I have my favourites in the “helpers”, although I don’t know them personally, they seem like good genuine brothers.

I hope I'm wrong too. My information sources are down to only a couple of friends at Bethel who will talk openly about anything, and because they've worked closely with some of the same brothers for several years now, perhaps they have a jaded filter. So it's never fair to paint with a broad brush. When I ask how Brother So-and-So is doing, I get a story that starts out: "You'll never believe what he did the other day . . . " And, of course, it's always something that I can easily believe.

I still happily admit that things are much, much better in the last 20 years or so. That's from both a spiritual perspective (doctrinal changes) and from a material and procedural perspective. The Society is managing hundreds more languages and millions more publishers and doing it all more smoothly and professionally with less "sweat." I"m amazed at how well it runs, and compare my own Bethel experience in the 70's and 80's as "amateur hour" compared to the skills available now. I think Jehovah's spirit permeates and overrides the human deficiencies, so that Jehovah's will gets accomplished no matter what.

[TrueTomHarley]

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Naturally, many were just amazingly full of love and encouraging experiences. You just wanted to go back to their country with them and share the joy. But I have also never met so many cold bureaucrats who never wanted to go from door-to-door again in their life

This is subjective, as are my observations. But to the extent it is true, I'm not sure just how terrible it is. Obviously, it is not the ideal. Nonetheless, door-to-door never comes easily to some. Not everyone is a communicator. It can't be easy to carry around weighty responsibilities affording one respect, and routinely shifting to the field where there is not one grain of respect. Some always find it a struggle, and I will love them for trying,  even when they do not knock the ball out of the park.

Back before the LDC and its predecessor, If you wanted to build a Kingdom Hall, there were certain brothers, builders by trade, that you just had to get onboard. Everyone else was all-thumbs in comparison. These brothers had the expertise and willingness, and they roamed about instrumental in many a building project. But some considered them 'second tier' because their formal ministry wasn't that hot.

Let them bring their gift to the altar, even if public preaching has become a bit of a sideline from them. I fancy myself comfortable at communicating these days, yet I could not build a Kingdom Hall model out of Lego blocks.

[b4ucuhear]

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Those who turned their ministry skills into public speaking skills became almost totally inactive or unenthusiastic about any part in the ministry outside of "full-time bureaucratic service."

I have seen that too - although not across the board. Some very fine brothers who are very active in the ministry are also good speakers. But the converse is most certainly true quite often. 

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But I have also never met so many cold bureaucrats who never wanted to go from door-to-door again in their life. Also, the current brothers who are named "Helpers" of the Governing Body, well, most of these were working their way up the bureaucratic and political ladders at Bethel in 1980 and the personality similarities among many of them. I shouldn't say, so I won't.

We had many Bethelites assigned to our congregation (not from Brooklyn) and the ones least likely to go out in the ministry were them. (I can't speak for other congregations though and I doubt that is the experience across the board).

 But "cold bureaucrats who never wanted to go from door-to-door..." can be found all over if you are privy to behind-the-scenes activities. They may have started off well, but this "corporate ladder" mentality of wanting to be noticed and be somebody can take hold if one isn't careful. Sure, all brothers are encouraged to "reach out," but again as we are often encouraged to personally consider: What is you motive? Some of the better speakers/C.O.'s even have a "following" of brothers and sisters who will travel to a congregation to hear them speak. (As we found out when they came to ours and others). That is unhealthy no matter who you are. Often/(sadly) when brothers and sisters see a "wow" speaker of the platform at a meeting or assembly, the equate that person as being spiritual and an example. But as you and I both know, that at times couldn't be farther from the truth. You can't always judge a book by it's cover. But again, that is not my experience with most brothers and sisters on the platform - but it is often enough for sure.

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

These brothers had the expertise and willingness, and they roamed about instrumental in many a building project. But some considered them 'second tier' because their formal ministry wasn't that hot.

I have experienced something like this although my "time" wasn't in question. We were asked when doing Bethel construction to skip our meetings and assemblies while living on site. But the congregations we belonged to had a hard time accepting that, and gave us heat over it. As far as not doing as much in the ministry when occupied in construction projects, there is at least an allowance/tolerance for pioneers who may not make their time due to said projects - even allowing for vacation time. So the time, effort and skills these brothers bring to the table is and should be valued. But that is not what I/we are referring to above. It has to do more with the attitude. After all, that attitude was also manifest early on when some left the organization, NOT WANTING to go out in the ministry. 

[TrueTomHarley]

40 minutes ago, b4ucuhear said:

After all, that attitude was also manifest early on when some left the organization, NOT WANTING to go out in the ministry. 

The public ministry grounds a person. Stray from it at your personal spiritual peril.

[b4ucuhear]

9 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The public ministry grounds a person.

Well put and very true. Individuals who are proud, ambitious, want to be adored...do not have the humility to do that work and even when they do, everyone knows about it (whether by title or otherwise. That's where you find members of the "Secret Service.")               Thankfully we have many others - both pioneers and publishers - who are a joy to spend the days with and love being out in the ministry. . 

[Queen Esther]

And  I  hope,  that  my  starting  point  will  stay  deep  in  all  our  hearts....   that  was,  why  I  posted  it !     Not  forget  some  of  our  poor sheeps   Thank  you  Brothers  and  Sisters