Demonism and the Watchtower

[Shiwiii]

2 hours ago, Anna said:

I know. This is the craziest idea ever put in writing in any of our magazines. When I read it at the time I couldn't believe it...especially when used to support the identity of the great crowd and in turn to support the resurrection occurring between 1914 and 1935.  I wonder who came up with that idea and how it could have been sanctioned. This is the kind of reasoning I would expect in Russell's day, not 10 years ago! I think I've already had a rant about this somewhere, if yes, sorry for the repetition

It's thoughts like these that make me question the devotion to each and every teaching that comes from the wt's mouth as if it WERE from God. Obey or else! Why is there no allowance for personal opinion/understanding? What about all of those folks who thought that it was probably ok to take SOME blood fractions, or organs prior to the change made by the wt? Doesn't really matter now, they're dead.....well you get the point. 

[Anna]

@AllenSmith I don't know why you quoted most of

the the WT. The problem is not when the resurrection to heaven was to have taken place but these assumptions:

9 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

in the vision John must represent anointed ones on earth who have not yet received their heavenly reward.

and

9 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

It seems that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today.

Both these statements are speculative.

9 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

If one of the 24 elders was used to convey that important truth,

This is basically saying that Rutherford was contacted by one of the resurrected anointed and told (in a vision or a dream perhaps?) who the great crowd was. Is this likely, considering that Jehovah does not communicate like this with anyone on earth today? It makes no logical sense. We know the Slave is not inspired, and we also know communication with the spirit world, except with Jehovah, through Jesus, by means of prayer, is forbidden.  So the idea about communication between the anointed in heaven and earth TODAY is not Scriptural at all. The only thing that leads us today is the holy spirit, Jehovah's active force, and as we know, anyone can ask for it and receive it, and it is not a person.

[Anna]

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

It's thoughts like these that make me question the devotion to each and every teaching that comes from the wt's mouth as if it WERE from God. Obey or else! Why is there no allowance for personal opinion/understanding? What about all of those folks who thought that it was probably ok to take SOME blood fractions, or organs prior to the change made by the wt? Doesn't really matter now, they're dead.....well you get the point. 

Well, I don't feel this is an obey or else scenario at all. As you see, there is an allowance for personal opinion/understanding. As for those who thought it was ok to take some blood fractions or organs prior to the change, well as you say, it doesn't matter now, they're dead (I presume you mean because of old age) so the point is, in the end we all must make our OWN decisions, and not blame the WT for them if we later change our mind....

[Evacuated]

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Bible says that communicating with these spirit creatures is spiritism:

Isn't what the Bible condemns as spritism the initiation of communication by humans with wicked spirits (demons) who in the main actually pretend to be the spirits of past deceased humans. And of course this includes direct communications by humans with these demons that bypasses the deception stage?

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Yet, as soon as it comes to our belief that those persons of the 144,000 who died are still alive as spirit creatures, then we think that we can safely ignore what we have condemned others for believing.

Do you really think if it were possible that any resurrected members of the 144000 were to in some way communicate information to faithful Christians on earth this would properly be classed as "spiritism"? Remembering of course that these are not dead people who are still alive as spirits. They are actually live spirit creatures who at one time were humans. They were resurrected to a new form of life after they had completely died as humans.

If this would be termed as  "spiritism", how would you categorise the communication in earlier times between angels and humans, including those occasions when Jesus communicated with sprits?

And do you think it was "spiritism" when Jesus and the disciples communicated on numerous occasions after his resurrection as a spirit creature?

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Isn't what the Bible condemns as spritism the initiation of communication by humans with wicked spirits (demons) who in the main actually pretend to be the spirits of past deceased humans.

We know that this is included, but I would suggest that neither you nor I know all the things that might be included in spiritism. The Bible never says where it is initiated. The Bible also never says that the spirits being communicated with are limited to demons pretending to be spirits of past deceased humans. What we do know is that the primary point of spiritism is not about who initiated the communication but is the communication with spirits itself. I would agree with this statement in the Insight book:

*** it-2 p. 1027 Spiritism ***

• A major feature of spiritism is claimed communication with the dead.

What we believe about the persons who have died is irrelevant. You and I might believe they are still alive as resurrected spirits, and some others might believe that when the human dies, their spirit continues living on in some way.

• (Ecclesiastes 3:21) 21 Who really knows whether the spirit of humans ascends upward, and whether the spirit of animals descends down to the earth?
• (Ecclesiastes 12:7) 7 Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

None of us claim communication with angels or demons. These are spirit creatures and we should not be communicating with them either directly or as a perceived proxy or representative of a human who has died. But even if we believe that the person we are communicating with is a resurrected spirit of someone who is one of the 144,000, then that person is still a spirit creature, and was in fact created as a recreation of the spirit of that person that returned to God who gave it. This is what makes the resurrected person the same person.

So, yes, we could rationalize that it's OK for someone like Rutherford to claim that it was an angel or spirit of some sort communicating with him about the "great crowd" prior to 1935. The Watchtower implies that he was communicating with the resurrected spirit of a human who had died. You could rationalize that Rutherford didn't initiate this communication, and this somehow makes it OK. But how do we supposed such a thing would have happened? Was Rutherford more susceptible to this kind of communication with the spirit world? If so, how? Wouldn't this make Rutherford a "medium"?

*** it-2 p. 1027 Spiritism ***

• The belief or doctrine that the spirits of the human dead, surviving the death of the physical body, can and do communicate with the living, especially through a person (a medium) particularly susceptible to their influence.

It's also important to notice how a simple mistake opens us up to the charge of spritism and divination. Look what happened when Rutherford published the idea that Russell was managing the Society from beyond the grave:

This verse (Revelation 8:3) shows that, though Pastor Russell has passed beyond the veil, he is still managing every feature of the harvest work... We hold that he supervises, by the Lord's arrangement, the work yet to be done. (The Finished Mystery 1917 pp. 144, 256)

Hence our dear Pastor, now in glory, is without doubt, manifesting a keen interest in the harvest work, and is permitted by the Lord to exercise some strong influence thereupon. (Watch Tower 1917, November 1 p. 6161, WTS reprints)
 

Notice, however, that this was in 1917. So what was this communication? And why was there "no doubt" that Russell was exercising strong influence and supervising every feature of the harvest work? The Watchtower stopped teaching that there had been a resurrection of Russell in 1916, so all this information stated so clearly and "without doubt" turned out to be a false teaching. In fact, Rutherford admitted this in 1934:

• No one of the temple company would be so foolish as to conclude that some brother (or brethren) at one time amongst them, and who has died and gone to heaven, is now instructing the saints on earth and directing them as to their work. (Jehovah 1934 p. 191)

But this rejection didn't stick. The idea was resurrected in the Revelation book:

• *** re chap. 20 pp. 124-125 par. 17 A Multitudinous Great Crowd ***
  From the time of the apostle John and on into the Lord’s day, anointed Christians were puzzled as to the identity of the great crowd. It is fitting, then, that one of the 24 elders, representing anointed ones already in heaven, should stir John’s thinking by raising a pertinent question. “And in response one of the elders said to me: ‘These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?’ So right away I said to him: ‘My lord, you are the one that knows.’” (Revelation 7:13, 14a) Yes, that elder could locate the answer and give it to John. This suggests that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today. For their part, those of the John class on earth got to learn the identity of the great crowd by closely observing what Jehovah was performing in their midst. They were quick to appreciate the dazzling flash of divine light that emblazoned the theocratic firmament in 1935, at Jehovah’s due time.

We are very forgiving of the former Watch Tower belief that Russell, who we now believe to have been dead in the grave and NOT resurrected in 1917 was believed to be directing every aspect of the organization's work in 1917. But would we be as forgiving of other religions who speak of communicating with angels and spirits? I found this quote someone wrote about Rutherford:

• Joseph Rutherford, the second president of the WTS, believed his spiritual enlightenment came from angels because the Holy Spirit had ceased functioning since 1918. The angels channeled information into his mind from God residing on the star Alcyone. (Preservation 1932 pp.51; 201-203; Watchtower 1931 November 1 p. 327; The Watchtower 1934 April 1 p. 105)

Is any of that quoted paragraph true?

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Is any of that quoted paragraph true?

This paragraph is obviously rubbish. We can do the apostates work for them and list every similar type of statement from past publications if we were of a mind. This comes under my category of "nonsensical gobbledygook" which may or may not be an accurate description, but works for me. However, I don't waste my time mulling over past error amongst Jehovah's Witnesses, IBSA members, or whatever designation applies. Whole websites and reams of literature are dedicated to that cause.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

neither you nor I know all the things that might be included in spiritism.

My position with the definition of spritism is that Jehovah has provided an adequate definition of what is encompassed in this practice in His Word.  From comparing both Deuteronomy 18:9-12, and Galatians 5:20, it is quite easy to conclude correctly that engagement in this condemned activity is on the part of the human practicer, as it is both legislated against in a law code for humans, and later described as a "work of the flesh". So it is clear spiritism is not a neutral term, and that that the practice of spiritism encompasses a definition narrower than what you seem to imply. (Forgive any misunderstanding, put it down to ambiguity in your definition).

Surely it could not be argued that Jesus was engaging in spiritism by conversing with Satan and rebutting his attempts to compromise his integrity in the wilderness. (Luke 4:1-13)? Nor on the numerous occasions when both he and disciples "communicated" with the spirit realm in order to release humans tormented by wicked spirit creatures, (comp. Matt.8:28-32)?

What we don't know about spiritism surely comes under the designation "the “deep things of Satan,” as they say" (Rev.2:34). Jehovah has determined that what we do need to know is discernible in his word which "completely" equips us. 2Tim.3:16; Eph.6:11.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The Bible also never says that the spirits being communicated with are limited to demons pretending to be spirits of past deceased humans.

Your quotation of my words omitted that I clearly pointed out that spiritism includes :

7 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

direct communications by humans with these demons that bypasses the deception stage?

To clarify, that deception where dead people are impersonated. Communication with demons may omit that stage.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

primary point of spiritism is not about who initiated the communication but is the communication with spirits

This statement is misleading and wrong. Spiritism, as referred to in Scripture, is communication in the form of a human fellowship or interchange with demonic spirits, whether one is aware of their malevolent intent or otherwise. It is a particular form of sharing at "the table of demons". 

If we see it any other light, then we would have to include all forms of communication with the spirit world, such as those described already, and then add to that list "dreams and visions" as recorded by the prophets, the delivery of angelic messages  to the likes of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Mary, even the shepherds at Jesus birth. In fact, all of the inspired writings which are sourced utimately from the spirit realm, and even prayer itself which is a form of communicating with a spirit.

Now if we are going to start washing the dirty linen of past error on the part of those associated with the movement we now belong to, great care must be taken in the manner and context in which this is shared. Otherwise, there is a danger of  undermining respect for the information and counsel we now get through what amounts to being the same channel. This of course will serve the same interests of the one behind spiritism and will  prove the wisdom of Jesus' words "Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand." As we are aware that the kingdom of God is a kingdom that "will never be brought to ruin", (Dan.2:44 NWT1984), we do not have to use much imagination to know which kingdom, city, or house will come to desolation, not through overt spiritism, but simply through an unwise use of the tongue which could serve, ultimately, the same purpose.

[Cos]

18 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I have the advantage over you, Cos, if you are less than 50 years old.

In 7th Grade English they taught us to diagram sentences to be able to determine EXACTLY what was being said in written communications.  It has proved valuable to me my entire life.

My wife tells me that in High School now-days  no one can understand script writing ... how to read an analog clock,  or Roman numerals. It is not taught in public schools anymore.  She teaches High School Algebra, and Calculus.

Neither is how to diagram sentences, and that has not been taught for apparently many decades.

The sentence structure determines what is actually being said ... the BOLD type is used for visual emphasis, much like spiking a football AFTER the touchdown, therefore ...

The sentence structure determines what is actually being said.

 

Mr. Rook,

 

The only “advantage” you may think you have is a figment of your imagination! <><

[Cos]

21 hours ago, JW Insider said:

That's not what I was saying. I was trying to point out that these particular scenarios are no longer real to Witnesses. Russell, as a resurrected spirit, could not have been really been communicating from beyond the grave in order to run the entire operation of the Watch Tower Society in 1917. This is because, after a few years, it was decided that he hadn't really been resurrected until the spring of 1918. Now, even that idea is in question, according to the Watchtower. Technically, the Watchtower even admits that it is possible that Russell has not been resurrected yet, as this could happen any time before the end of the Great Tribulation.

Hi JW Insider,

 

I don’t see the connection, just because some JW’s  now conclude this about your late president, it’s not correct to group Greber’s practices with what you JWs now believe, remember you said, “Whether this was really "spiritistic" influence from demons is probably about as likely as Woodworth being correct when he thought he was under demonic influence...”

 

I would say you can definitely bank on the fact that it was not your late president in communication with the Watchtower Society after his death, but that’s not to say that something else wasn’t.

 

21 hours ago, JW Insider said:

 

The actual credentials of other scholars or writers are not usually considered important. If a Bible or a commentary is published, that's the main thing. If it appears scholarly or has been quoted by someone who looks scholarly, then it is important to the extent that it supports our teachings. Prior to the year 2000, it was the exception in our publications to even mention the name of the book or or person we were quoting, and we more often would see expressions like "a well-known author once said that . . . " or "a 19th century scholar has said . . . " These kinds of quotes were actually unchecked by the proofreaders, who were sisters, and would only ask for the original if they used lengthy direct quotes. The interpretation of those quotes was not questioned by the sisters, even if it was clearly wrong.

 

What you say only confirms that the Watchtower would use any means, no matter what, to promote an idea or theory irrespective of where or who it comes from…that’s not very good stewardship.

 

It is also plausible that they still continue in this manner.

 

There still is the problem with this idea that the Watchtower “lost sight of” the fact about Greber’s occult practices. It seem unimaginable that the then president and the rest of the governing body ALL totally miss this…don’t they even read their own magazine aren’t they supposed to have their fingers on the pulse as is claimed about what’s being put into the magazine and books publish by the Watchtower?

 

You admit to have been privy to a lot of the goings on at Watchtower H.Q. which the average JW would not be aware of, my question is, do you just accept all those things? <><

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

1 hour ago, Cos said:

Mr. Rook,

 

The only “advantage” you may think you have is a figment of your imagination! <><

Apparently not... you misunderstood a sentence that was crystal clear.

[Shiwiii]

17 hours ago, Anna said:

Well, I don't feel this is an obey or else scenario at all. As you see, there is an allowance for personal opinion/understanding. As for those who thought it was ok to take some blood fractions or organs prior to the change, well as you say, it doesn't matter now, they're dead (I presume you mean because of old age) so the point is, in the end we all must make our OWN decisions, and not blame the WT for them if we later change our mind....

You may not, but you know exactly what I am saying. The wt requires the jws to align and if they do not they are pushed out. 

I'd rather have questions I cannot answer than answers I cannot question

generation - definition? according to whom is the key. 

[JW Insider]

46 minutes ago, Cos said:

I would say you can definitely bank on the fact that it was not your late president in communication with the Watchtower Society after his death, but that’s not to say that something else wasn’t.

I can agree with this. But I do not think it was either Russell or Satan or demons. Although I think that demons and the occult can be an improper influence, I do think people who tend to decide that everything is either Satan or Jehovah are more likely to fool themselves into thinking in black and white. When they don't understand something and think it's positive then that must be Jehovah. When they don't understand something and they think that it's negative, then it must be Satan.

Russell didn't have that problem, based on several things he wrote. He was able to see gray areas and understand that the world was full of things and people that could be both positive and negative.

From reading the work of Woodworth and Rutherford, I think they suffered from this kind of polarized thinking which tells me that we can't really trust their view of their own experiences. Rutherford, for example, taught that the Great Pyramid was Jehovah's witness in stone, just as Russell had. Then, when he changed his mind, he gave no indication that Russell was merely making a mistake, but Rutherford decided that the Great Pyramid was now Satan's witness in stone. Rutherford did this many times. He saw Satan in everything he disagreed with. You were either on Rutherford's side (which he called the Lord's side) or Satan's side.

Woodworth also seems to have suffered from the same bifurcated thinking, which is a better explanation for when he said these words, found in the 13th Souvenir Convention Report, p. 274:

• I came directly under the influence of evil spirits, so much so that for three days I was as completely under demonical control as was Mrs. Eddy when she wrote "Science and Health."

But notice what he said in the Finished Mystery:

• Have you enjoyed this work so far? Are you convinced it is of the Lord-- prepared under His guidance? Have you carefully and prayerfully read the comments on Rev. 7:1? Then brace yourself for the truth that it is evidently God's purpose soon to allow the minds of many of His little ones to become an open battle ground, upon which the fallen angels shall be judged, and the manner in which we meet the tests will prove our worthiness of crowns at the same time that it proves these disobedient spirits unworthy of life on any plane. This is something with which some but not many are yet familiar.... without actual experience it is quite impossible to conceive of the intensity of such struggles.... The base of the brain is seized as in a vise. Interpretations of Scripture, ingenious, but misleading beyond description, are projected into the mind as water might be projected through a hose. Visions may be tried, wonderful illuminations of the mind as by a soft but glorious greenish or yellowish haze. Seductive suggestions may be made, based on circumstances of the environment. Offers of inspiration may be made. The privilege of sleep may be taken away for days at a stretch. All this with the object of forcing the unfortunate into at least a temporary insanity.... the mind may be flooded with thoughts that are vile beyond description. THEN REMEMBER THE VOW.

Most of us would have no way to make a connection between the Vow, temporary insanity, colorful illuminations of the mind, and "offers of inspiration." But Woodworth explained the connection earlier during the convention speech noted above (summer of 1913):

I WISH to speak to you of something that I certainly never intended mentioning at this convention. I presume you have all taken the vow, but perhaps some of you have not. . . .

Then began my troubles. . . .  I thought that . . . Brother Russell was wrong . . .

There was a time for five consecutive nights when I never slept a wink; then came a time when the strain was too much; my mind became unbalanced, and I came directly under the influence of evil spirits, so much so that for three days I was as completely under demonical control as was Mrs. Eddy when she wrote "Science and Health."

Previous to this time I had prepared a 36-page book against the Vow, printed in double column, in which all scriptures which seemed to be directly or indirectly against the Vow were arranged. I know now that all these Scriptures were suggested to my mind by the evil spirits. One of the suggestions was... (and this I believe was a truth, for these "lying spirits" do sometimes tell the truth) that in the fifteenth chapter of Numbers where it mentions the "Ribband of blue," it had reference, anti-typically, to the Vow. But then these lying spirits turned the truth into a lie by claiming that the Vow had been suggested to Brother Russell by the evil spirits. See how clever they were!

But when Russell was able to point out a scriptural mistake in his book Woodworth burned it, so that Woodworth thereafter finally believed that Russell was "That Servant" [whom his master appointed over the household of faith] and that the Vow was "inspired of God."

Until this time I had never settled in my own mind that Brother Russell was "That Servant.".... I never settled the matter until I yielded and took the Vow which he advised all the Lord's saints to take.... I firmly believe that this "ribband in blue" is the Vow and inspired of God...

To me all this shows how susceptible Woodworth was to this "all or nothing" "black and white" thinking. He seems to have had no clue that trying to stay up 5 days in a row might also drive one to the brink of insanity. It is rumored that his work on the Finished Mystery was also done with the same lack of sleep.

[TrueTomHarley]

47 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Rutherford, for example, taught that the Great Pyramid was Jehovah's witness in stone, just as Russell had.

Off topic, but there is some Christian preacher who is right now invoking the pyramids to explain how earth is soon to be destroyed by a mysterious incoming planet. 

A sign, one of two witnesses of Revelation, is that of the eclipse that just  bisected the country. (gasp!)