The book "Seola" aka "Angels and Women", mummies, and a plethora of other curiosities from the 1800's onward

[Anna]

6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yikes! Could it be? Do I not have feelings?

Well I was hoping J.R was referring to himself, the astute man that he is, but I'm afraid it was probably directed at JWInsider. He's just jealous....

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

The foghorn is sounding off. But being dismissive of Russell’s own words seem hypocritical!!

A foghorn creates a sound that cuts through the fog. So if you meant that as a compliment, thanks. But that wasn't my intent because I was merely stating something based on Russell's own words. I realize that he distinguished himself from pure "universal salvation" believers. My point was that, if we don't dismiss Russell's own words, we can see that he was much closer to a universal salvation believer than we are (as JWs) and therefore, we shouldn't be surprised that Russell may have expected many demons to repent, even though they were perfect and we tend to view loss of perfection as rebellion. After all, he expected most of humankind to live on the earth, and most Christians (of all varieties) to go to heaven.

Many of us grew up with the very different ideas about salvation that Rutherford started to push and which Fred Franz promoted with numbers attached. Franz gave talks and wrote articles assuring us that BILLIONS would be destroyed forever at Armageddon, even putting the percentage of those who would be slaughtered at 99.9% on the side of Satan. Because of this we might not easily understand that Russell, while not a Universalist, tended to agree with them to an extent quite different from most other Christian religions of his time.

When Russell wrote an article on Universal Salvation he made points that would seem agreeable to many of them: [R 1436,7,8]

• UNIVERSAL SALVATION.  "We trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe."--1 Tim. 4:10. It is very generally conceded among Christians that Universalists are the only class of people who have any claim upon, or use for, this text of Scripture; but although we are not Universalists, we also, with Paul, trust in the living God [Jehovah], who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe. Thus the Apostle declares that in one sense the salvation which God has promised is to be universal, while in another sense it is to be restricted to believers. . . . But, while thus the Savior of all, there is a particular or special sense in which God is the Savior of those that believe and accept this reconciliation and the opportunity offered of making it everlasting salvation. This salvation is conditional: "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." (Acts 16:31.) This is an unequivocal promise of actual and permanent salvation to every individual who believes, i.e., heartily accepts. To such an one, God not only stands in the attitude of a savior, ready and willing to save, but he will go farther and actually accomplish his salvation; and this is the special sense in which he is the Savior of them that believe. . . . Others, while claiming that God is willing and ready to save all, practically deny it by claiming that the necessary believing must be done in the present life-- which practically excludes three-fourths of the race from any opportunity of sharing in it, since more than that proportion have died without any knowledge of the only name given under heaven or among men, whereby we must be saved. This view contradicts God's Word; because for even one member of the human race to be left unprovided for--to be left without the needful information and opportunity-- would render false the statement which God makes, that he stands as a Savior to all men. The entire matter is clear, however, when viewed from the standpoint of the Plan of the Ages-- which shows that through the redemptive work of Christ God has provided salvation for all from all that "was lost" in Adam; and that the knowledge necessary to the acceptance of this provided gift, while it has reached only the few in the present life, is to be testified to all in due time--in the coming age, in which Christ and his Church shall reign over and bless, with his gracious offer, all the families of the earth.

We should keep in mind that Russell (and Rutherford for many years) also had quite a different view of Armageddon than that which developed over time in the Watch Tower publications. Today, many Witnesses fret over what will happen with Hindus and Buddhists, for example, many still thinking that Jehovah must destroy any and all (plus their kids!) who had some opportunity to hear the good news as preached by us, because any who had a good heart condition would surely have rushed over to our side. How else can horses be practically swimming in blood?

Relative to the beliefs we held in the 1940's through the 1970's, Russell was more of a believer in universal salvation.

[JW Insider]

On 9/22/2017 at 1:15 AM, Anna said:

Br. Herd (if he really said anything like what was quoted)

He did. I found a copy. Attached below. Try from about the 6 minute mark through the 9 minute mark.

Also note this picture from Rutherford's book Religion (1940) p.16. Notice the plumes on the head of the giant on the left?

This came from Seola:

• "Mounted upon the back of each huge beast was a black dwarf robed in scarlet and holding a guiding wand in his hand. In front and rear were seen a band of gigantic men, clad also in scarlet, with black plumes upon their heads, and marshalled in battle array. These I knew must be the terrible beings of whom my father had spoken, Darvands, the offspring of angels and women..." (Seola - 1878, Page 63,4).

The original Seola had two additional races joining humankind, giants and black dwarfs as slaves (because the author was a little bit racist). A&W got rid of the black slaves, and also got rid of all references to storms, clouds, and rain prior to the Flood, even references to clear skies, and changed them all to references about the hard-to-see-through firmament or "water canopy."

Other references to the giants in Seola describe them with headbands (as shown here and still shown in recent publications) and with leaves (shown here) and with talismans (perhaps shown here as what appears to be a rock in the hand).

Samuel Herd Talk referencing Angels and Women.mp3

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

WOW!

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

We have not yet reached the million word mark for this thread, and under the rule of Universal Silliness, we are required to argue these points for the next several years.

I have wasted MUCH of my life devoted to such things, and consider them now ALL .. light entertainment.

Only.

MANY years ago I lamented that Ecclesiastes 12:12 was my favorite scripture, as it expressed the burden of carrying around many heavy bags of sand on my back... loaded on by others.

I am going to do the best I can, hope it's good enough ... sit back, and "watch the show"

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin is irrelevant.

I strongly suspect that soon enough ... too soon ... WE WILL ALL KNOW.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Ecclesiastes 12:13:

" Now all has been heard;
    here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
    for this is the duty of all mankind."

PERIOD!

[Guest J.R. Ewing]

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yikes! Could it be? Do I not have feelings?

Seriously, I know you are two-faced, but this is ridiculous!!!!!!

Aren’t you a real author? Or have you demoted yourself to be a self-employed novelist?

What on earth would cause Jesus to be jealous of a Pharisee?

[Guest J.R. Ewing]

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Relative to the beliefs we held in the 1940's through the 1970's, Russell was more of a believer in universal salvation.

This is interesting. Why didn't you include, where you got all this subject matter?

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, J.R. Ewing said:

This is interesting. Why didn't you include, where you got all this subject matter?

There were just so many relevant quotes that I didn't take the time to type out the full month and year, just the page number with the F or R next to it. The F is a reference to the New Creation book, Volume 6 of Studies in the Scriptures. Those other references with just an R next to the number are the Watch Tower Reprint page numbers, which is, of course, the quickest way to refer to the entire set of Zion's Watch Tower and Watch Tower issues from 1879 to 1916. If you need to match them to a month and year, just go to http://www.htdbv8.com/  (Harvest Truth Data Base) and sort "Original Towers" by Ascending Chronological Order. All you have to do is recall a couple of unique words from the original article and it will likely show up on Google on one of the several Russell publication sites. I prefer agsconsulting.com to pick them up from. So ultimately the information is coming from Google searches.

If you are talking about some of the references to our beliefs about Armageddon from the 1940's through the 1970's (99.9% etc, these were recently discussed elsewhere on the forum.)

[Guest J.R. Ewing]

So, basically, what you’re saying in Russell’s words, be dismissive of my words to prove a discontinued view. If I Russell, was alive when The JW reformation began, I would call upon the thought of the errors in universalism as I ultimately discerned in my other publicans. That “spiritism” is something not accepted in early Christianity.

Then, the Watchtower would be “correct” to claim Russell’s passing observation of not allowing demonic influences in one’s Christian life. Very Simple. Doesn’t take pages upon pages to deuce, or a revision on topic. Now, if you want to separate Adam’s redemption in another topic, it would clarify the confusion you created, by lumping two separate observations together.

[JW Insider]

6 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

J. C. S.

By the way, even though the long article you quoted called "Not Ashamed of the Gospel" supports what I was saying about Russell's view, we should be careful about the way in which we might inadvertently claim that early Zion's Watch Tower articles are supposed to exactly represent Russell's thinking at the time. This was from an early May 1881 Watch Tower, and the J.C.S. initials at the end of that article indicates that it was contributed by J. C. Sunderlin who said quite a few things that Russell himself never said. (Calling William Miller, "Father" Miller, for example.)

[Anna]

7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin 

Oh! Hasn't anyone started a topic on that yet?

(Chuckles wickedly)