C. T. Russell was labeled as an apostate by the Adventists in 1877

[Jack Ryan]

1877_Advent_Christian_Times_Barbour_Russell.pdf

They stated that Russell

1. was causing divisions in adventists circles

2. that he was preaching a different gospel/doctrine to his church at that time

3. subversion

4. they try to 'belittle' him

5. their own boast that they have not succeeded

6. do NOT go near them (shunning) or give them any support (countenance)

In essence the words used labels Russell as an 'apostate' to his current church at that time.

BONUS: If you look at the header of the paper the symbol of the Advent Christian Times is suspiciously close to the one Russell "created" for the Bible Students (or not to say the same, but without the laurels at the sides).

[Jack Ryan]

I love this. The irony of it is wonderful. Our whole ex-religion is based on, drum roll 🥁🥁🥁

APOSTASY

[Arauna]

I love this too! Where are the seventh day adventists today? Has there been any spiritual growth?  Have you spoken to one lately? 

They are still clinging to the mosaic law - but only parts of it....... the parts which are possible to keep such as  sabbath. The other  parts of the law are ignored.   

We are no longer under law. Paul gave a wonderful illustration of this in Galatians 4 :  ²¹  Tell me, you who want to be under law, Do you not hear the Law? ²²  For example, it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the servant girl+ and one by the free woman;+²³  but the one by the servant girl was actually born through natural descent*+ and the other by the free woman through a promise.+ ²⁴  These things may be taken as a symbolic drama; for these women mean two covenants, the one from Mount Siʹnai,+ which bears children for slavery and which is Haʹgar.²⁵  Now Haʹgar means Siʹnai,+ a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. ²⁶  But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

Where are the seventh day adventists today? Has there been any spiritual growth?  Have you spoken to one lately? 

My wife has a cousin who is SDA and she still drops by fairly often, because she travels a long way from her home to a church in the town neighboring ours. She enjoys the religious discussions, although I find her to be a bit sanctimonious about health issues, especially. (She's mostly a vegetarian.) And she seems like she gets it when we speak of their unfavorable E.G.White-related history, and several untenable doctrines (Sabbath, "Trinity," alcohol, etc.). But then she gets re-energized by her church to ignore it all, and she goes right back to how well they are doing in their charities, and growth.

Her SDA church seems to have taken a strong interest in Hebrew/Messianic Jewish outreach, and has several Hebrew-speaking converts. 

But she also point out that they started at a time (and place) very similar to the Watchtower and yet they have grown to twice as many active members. 20 million vs our 8+ million, she claims. I don't know exactly how they measure activity, but they do have a lot of people who are active in outreach to poor people, "missions," etc. Most of her church attend more than one meeting a week.

[The Librarian]

@JW Insider wow!  20,000,000!   

I wasn't aware. 

Our local Chuck's Produce is a huge healthy market locally and it is always frustrating when they are closed on Saturdays.

It must cost them a fortune to close like that on such a busy day but somehow they prosper very well.

[Arauna]

Islam is more than one billion and growing but have they spiritually grown in the sense that they understand more truths and become more mature?  

[Witness]

18 hours ago, Arauna said:

I love this too! Where are the seventh day adventists today? Has there been any spiritual growth?  Have you spoken to one lately? 

They are still clinging to the mosaic law - but only parts of it....... the parts which are possible to keep such as  sabbath. The other  parts of the law are ignored.   

If one compares apples to apples, since all religious organizations are “worldly” and operate by the same available assets in this world, the Seventh Day Adventists are much greater in number, as JWI pointed out.  Yes, they still observe the Sabbath, while the WT upholds a “governing body” who, as the Pharisees did, put themselves in the seat of Moses. “Governing body” is nowhere mentioned in the scriptures. ( John 5:44,43; Gal 1:10-12,17-20)   JWs have been buffaloed into believing it's somewhere, somehow within the Bible’s pages. 

 At one time, every anointed one in the organization was considered a “faithful and discreet slave” (still, Jesus makes the designation of their faithfulness when he returns  Matt 25:23).  At that time period, Jesus may have been viewed more closely, as their “governing” head on a personal level, but never was this body able to unite among the throng of JWs.  Jer 23:2  Today, eight men and their immense entourage have assumed authority over all of God’s anointed slaves.  Matt 28:48-51; Gal 1:10 Jesus’ control over his bodily members is gone.  Dan 8:10-13; 9:27; 12:7  Moses was God’s approved representative, “inspired” to lead the nation of Israel.  As their High Priest, the anointed spiritual “Israel” today should have only Jesus as their governing figure; recognized to lead his anointed servants.  However, the GB claims that status without any inspiration from the Father; but inspired from some fabrication within their minds.  Jer 23:16; Matt 24:24; Acts 20:29,30; 2 Pet 2:1-3

Just as the SDA are to be obedient to observing the Sabbath, the WT expects “Israel” to obey not only a Pharisaical ruler-ship, governing under its own law; but also a “Gentile” elder body who enforce it.  Did God allow another “nation” to govern His people, Israel? No. (Edit:  He did allow other nations to overcome them when they had fallen into idolatry; which the anointed and all JWs have done, by believing an organization will lead them to salvation.  Isa 40:25; Rom 1:25; Rev 13:4; 2 Thess 2:9-12; John 4:23,24)

When members of another nation entered the temple, was this excused with just a slap of the hand?  Never.    Today’s anointed ones represent the Temple, and ARE the temple/dwelling of God; and, another abomination exists within it.  (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17) 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1-3

Ezek 44:6-9:  Tell the rebellious people of Israel, ‘This is what the Almighty Lord says: I’ve had enough of all the disgusting things that you have done, people of Israel. ⁷ You brought foreigners whose hearts and bodies are uncircumcised into my holy place. You dishonored my temple when you offered fat and blood to me. You rejected my promise so that you could do all your disgusting things. ⁸ You didn’t take care of my holy things. You put foreigners in charge of my temple. ⁹ So this is what the Almighty Lord says: Any godless foreigner who lives among the Israelites may not enter my holy place.

The GB has “put foreigners” in charge of the Temple priests. Num 18:7  The elder body rule over/sit in/stand…in God’s Temple today, as the “man of lawlessness”. Dan 9:27; Matt 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:3,4,9-12 I do hope more elders wake up to what they’ve got themselves into, and leave. Rev 11:1-3; 18:4-8

So, what’s worse?  The SDA and their practice of observing the Sabbath, building hospitals and schools; or the WT leaders playing Moses, and delegating their own priesthood under their blasphemous set of "laws"?  Dan 7:23,25; Rev 13:1,2,5-7,11,15; Neh 13:29  

 

 

[Arauna]

On 9/2/2019 at 6:56 AM, Witness said:

Governing body is not mentioned in the bible

It was maybe called the Jerusalem central committee or Jerusalem elders or whatever name you want to give it..... It is definitely deceitful of you to say that such a central organization/body/committee did not exist.  It set a precedent for us.

You again prove willful amnesia about a bible fact.  Paul, the apostle, and his companion had to go to Jerusalem to testify before this body of elders which centrally made the decisions. They testified how the non-Jews received gifts of the spirit and were blessed by jehovah. We have the outcome decision which was sent to all the congregations at this time.  Acts 15 tells us what happened and what this group of elders under James decided. Acts 15: 29. 

All elders, including Paul, abided by this decision. So much so that Paul later chastised Peter who hypocritically sat separately only with the circumcised Jews. 

 

 

[Witness]

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

It is definitely deceitful of you to say that such a central organization/body/committee did not exist.  It set a precedent for us.

Please, can you provide scripture to clarify that it was a "central organization/body/committee"?  The idea may have set a precedent for the WT organization, but it isn't God's definition of "organization".  That would be the Body of Christ - built on "living stones".  1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22

How does the one incident about circumcision prove there was a "central organization/body/committee"?

[Witness]

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

It is definitely deceitful of you to say that such a central organization/body/committee did not exist.  It set a precedent for us.

Who organized Paul's ministry?

1"Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2 and all the brothers and sisters with me"

15"But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus."

If there was a "central organization/body/committee", I wonder what they thought of this independent rogue apostle, who listened to the Spirit, and not to men.

"Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ. 11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:1,2,15,16,10-12

[Arauna]

On 9/6/2019 at 9:34 PM, Witness said:

Who organized Paul's ministry?

 

I think you tend to stray off the main topic.

The point is not who organized Paul's personal ministry and who chose him ....but who he himself was subject to report to. In proof: He went all the way back to Jerusalem to go and report to the "body" that was making central decisions about circumcision of former pagans now in the congregation. All that travelling to report to an organization headed by James in Jerusalem?  It indicates he viewed  himself as subject to them and their opinions mattered for the unity if all the congregations. 

The outcome was sent out to all the congregations.

 

 

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

 

I think you tend to stray off the main topic.

The point is not who organized Paul's personal ministry and who chose him ....but who he himself was subject to report to. In proof: He went all the way back to Jerusalem to go and report to the "body" that was making central decisions about circumcision of former pagans now in the congregation. All that travelling to report to an organization headed by James in Jerusalem?  It indicates he viewed  himself as subject to them and their opinions mattered for the unity if all the congregations. 

The outcome was sent out to all the congregations.

 

 

Well, maybe one of your own leaders will put it into perspective for you.