The heavenly resurrection begins after the fall of Babylon the Great

[Pudgy]

…

[John 12.24to28]

8 minutes ago, boyle said:

It looks like you guys are using the pyramid analogy to get at something. What's to decipher? The 144,000 heavenly resurrection? Or the process by which the anointed are being risen?

 

Hi, @boyle! You came back! I thought you said you were going to try the JW Closed Club instead. (I don't qualify to go there right now, but that's okay, it's fun talking out here in the other club.) Do you like pyramids? I'm not really into them, unless it's to calculate a slope for a word problem.

[John 12.24to28]

@boyle, I think that's one of the least "intrusive" comments I've seen you make.🙂In all actuality, I wouldn't consider any of your comments with your other aliases "intrusive". (Besides, this is an open forum.) Over the top sometimes, occasionally shocking, generally tenacious, perhaps that would be a better way to put it?

 

Which site did you visit? (to see the Aztec ruins)

[John 12.24to28]

 

Well, @boyle I guess you'll have to let me know some other time...

 

Since this thread was about the heavenly resurrection happening after the fall of Babylon the Great, and at present we are talking about pyramids and Egypt and Aztecs, I was thinking how sad it is that so many people died not knowing the truth about the resurrection. Both the Egyptians and the Aztecs thought there were several invisible parts of the soul (ka, ba, akh; tonalli, teyolia, ihiyotl) and they were completely tricked by the Babylonish teachings initially spouted by the snake in the garden: "you positively will not die." Since then, how many have been duped into thinking people die and then are raised up invisibly!

 

We know about the history of pyramid-lovers in the organization. Too bad not more people realize that there are other related false teachings in the organization regarding the afterlife that are holdover from Babylon the Great. (Like the one about "when you're resurrected it will be invisible". None of the resurrections in the Bible happened invisibly. I wonder where that teaching came from? Oh, wait, I already know! I think you do, too...😁)

 

Anyway, I hope you guys have a nice week. I will be offline here for a week. Take care! ☺️

[John 12.24to28]

14 minutes ago, boyle said:

Since you have reactivated a discussion made in 2020 about resurrection that Konosen did not necessarily make on your point of view, can you give a biblical fact on how the resurrection and Babylon the great mean the anointed will be resurrected during Satan's fight of Armagadon?

 

I cannot give a Biblical fact on your statement: "how the resurrection and Babylon the Great mean the anointed will be resurrected during Satan's fight of Armageddon" because the Bible doesn't say that and neither did I.

 

I said quite clearly that the Bible shows the anointed will be resurrected after Babylon the Great falls but before Armageddon. If you want to reread the thread, go ahead, the scriptures to support the fact that the anointed will be resurrected after Babylon the Great falls but before Armageddon comes are there.

 

And Kosonen's original post title is "The heavenly resurrection begins after the fall of Babylon the Great" so the fact that the anointed will be resurrected after Babylon the Great falls but before Armageddon comes does fit with what he said in the title. 

 

Thank you, Boyle, for being so concerned about truth and clarity.

 

I am trying to take a little "vacation" from forums for a week, @Boyle, but I didn't change my notifications setting so I got your post in my inbox. Anyway, I hope you have a good evening.

[John 12.24to28]

Here is a link to some of the events during the great tribulation that the Bible talks about:

 

 

(I can talk more about it later, but I have to get something else done right now...if you have a comment after you read that link, I will get it and respond a little later if you want.)

[Pudgy]

Is this “ The hill you want to die on”?

As a Practical matter … how could it possibly matter if we DO have perfect knowledge about when the resurrection during the “end times” will occur?   …. Or we are totally ignorant about when?

When it happens, it will be obvious, or NOT obvious for those heaven bound.

For those resurrected to the Earth it will be VERY OBVIOUS …. If we are there!

I am not even concerned about that …. soon …. perhaps to soon, we will ALL KNOW!

Too much thinking about such things will only burn out your hair roots or give you a triple chin.

[John 12.24to28]

59 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

Is this “ The hill you want to die on”?

 

"Often, the idiom the hill you want to die on is used when describing something that will make or break one's reputation, or result in either glory or ignominy." 

 

"We have all probably heard or read someone use the phrase “that’s a hill I’m willing to die on” or something similar (especially on the internet). The earliest origin of the phrase in the sense of holding on to an argument or opinion no matter what the cost, is associated with military actions. Wiktionary’s entry states that it is an “allusion to the military practice of capturing/holding a hill (high ground), no matter the cost or (lack of) benefit.” Two examples are then given - the Battle of Hamburger Hill in the Vietnam War or Last Stand Hill at the Battle of Little Big Horn. Yet, the phrase surely goes back to some much more famous examples of men dying on hills, and it surely relates to the defense of a position (rather than an attack on one). After all, it is used to defend an argument, not usually to attack someone else’s. The most famous precedent for being willing to die on a hill is that upon which the defenders of Thermopylae died in 480 BC during the Persian Wars. Outnumbered, the Spartans and their allies defended the hill to the last man against the advancing Persians under their king Darius..." 

 

"...Associations with both Hamburger Hill and Last Stand Hill also seem to miss the point of the phrase. It implies foreknowledge of doom, impending death, and the rightness of one’s decision in being there and deciding to sacrifice oneself for that position. These are qualities missing from both the battles of Hamburger Hill and Little Big Horn, but are present in the uses of the phrase (in both the negative and questioning uses and in the positive uses of the phrase). The idea of deliberate sacrifice and moral certitude are, however, elements both present at Thermopylae (and Calvary) and other examples that followed it (and even sought to emulate it). According to Herodotus (7.220.3-4), the oracle at Delphi had foretold that for Sparta to remain free from Persian domination, a Spartan king needed to die. Leonidas’ foreknowledge (or at least his willingness to accept his fate) is a quality inherent in the phrase – yet one missing in the other (later) examples cited for its genesis. This perspective of Leonidas and the 300 at Thermopylae is perfectly summed up, with the added idea of their sacrifice, by Aelian (Varia Historia 3.25): "Leonidas the Spartan and his force of three hundred accepted the death that was prophesied for them at Thermopylae. After a brave and noble struggle on behalf of Greece they met a glorious end and left behind them an immortal reputation and a good name for eternity."

 

(Karwansaray Publishers "A Hill I am Willing to Die On - Lessons from Thermopylae https://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/en-us/blogs/ancient-warfare-blog/a-hill-i-am-willing-to-die-on-lessons-from-thermopylae)

 

Since (1) I do not consult oracles, (2) I don't have a "reputation" to lose - I'm already considered to be worthy of shunning by almost everyone here (not you two, of course, but pretty much everybody in the JW Closed Club), and (3) I don't care for glory and I despise ignominy, it's not really possible for me to "die" on this hill. (According to Watchtower, I'm already dead.) @Boyle can fire away if he chooses - we'll use the fire to roast marshmallows or take a ride in a hot air balloon or maybe they'll be a fireworks show.

 

(As you once wisely put it regarding @Moise's shenanigans... "But hey, that's entertainment!" 😁)

 

I think this is more fun than drawing stick figures, but I like that seagull one! (It reminds me of when we were young, my little brothers and I used to draw tiny stick figures invading the page on all the "Architectural Digest" magazine ads we had in our home..there'd be little stick figure guys climbing up people or jumping off their nose with a parachute or things like that😆)

[John 12.24to28]

1 hour ago, Pudgy said:

As a Practical matter … how could it possibly matter

 

I think the words "it really doesn't matter" sound best set to music...

 

[John 12.24to28]

1 hour ago, Pudgy said:

Too much thinking about such things will only burn out your hair roots or give you a triple chin.

 

Maybe that would help solve the aforementioned heavenly beard quandary with Roseannadanna?

[John 12.24to28]

More seriously, though, as far as why does it matter...By means of the holy spirit, my Lord told me to tell. You know how holy spirit isn't somebody talking to you - it's being motivated by love, seeing what happens when you follow in that direction, and clearly seeing the result that came in harmony with what you prayed. So I will obey Him. Because I love Him. (Even if nobody wants to listen - he said to tell, so I will. I love Him.)

 

"What I tell you in the darkness, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, preach from the housetops."

 

"But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you."

 

"Jesus said to them again: “May you have peace. Just as the Father has sent me, I also am sending you.”  After saying this he blew on them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit.""

 

"And as for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to be teaching you; but the anointing from him is teaching you about all things and is true and is no lie. Just as it has taught you, remain in union with him.  So now, little children, remain in union with him, so that when he is made manifest we may have freeness of speech and not shrink away from him in shame at his presence."

 

"Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.  Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.""

 

If I understand anything about Bible prophecy or timelines or anything, it's not because I have any special smartness or anything. It's because Jesus can make even dumb people understand. 

 

"In that very hour he became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved.  All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.”"

 

Jesus allowed me to be able to share these things that have been hidden from the fancy guys at Bethel because Jesus wants to show that he can use even a most despised person in the organization - an imperfect abused woman, a non-pioneer, a disfellowshipped woman viewed as an apostate who dared to tell on some mighty naughty elders - to understand some "deep" spiritual truths and share them with other despised ones before the fancy people on the Governing Body or from the GileadSchool/ElderSchool/MTSSchool/etc understand them. It brings praise to Jehovah to use the lowly ones. Praise Jehovah.

 

He is very soon going to turn the organization upside down, just like a woman turns a bowl upside down to clean it, similar to: "Therefore this is what Jehovah the God of Israel says: ‘Here I am bringing such a disaster on Jerusalem and Judah that it will make both ears of anyone who hears about it tingle. And I will stretch out on Jerusalem the measuring line applied to Sa·marʹi·a and use the leveling tool applied to the house of Aʹhab, and I will wipe Jerusalem clean, just as one wipes a bowl clean, wiping it and turning it upside down..."  and He will get glory for himself by means of telling the matter ahead of time by somebody really little. And it will encourage all the little ones because they will see again how much Jehovah cares for even the despised ones, and they will have more confidence during the troublesome times of the great tribulation because they will know even more that Jehovah won't leave them.

 

So, it really does matter if I share it, to Jesus.

 

(But it's still fun to see your stick figure seagull and other cartoons, so I hope you have some more to share soon. They make me laugh.😊)

[John 12.24to28]

(This is one of my favorite talks. I was going to wait and post it next week, but since @boyle posted and I'm here anyway now...It's the third one on this link: https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/VODPgmEvtAnnMtg/pub-jwbam_201610_3_VIDEO)

 

The funny thing is, Brother Jackson says a whole bunch of times that they don't know the details about the great tribulation. They're right. The Governing Body doesn't know the details because Jehovah has hidden it from them since they have been embracing all kinds of false teachings. Until they get rid of the dark teachings, they can't understand the light ones. Anyway, it's still a good talk, but it makes me laugh when he says "we don't know the details of the great tribulation" since the details are there in the Bible and Jehovah let the little despised ones know about it first! Jehovah does it with style, lol! "Expect the unexpected!"😆

 

Here is a transcript of that talk (it's still a good talk):

 

Expect the Unexpected

 

Brother Geoffrey Jackson

 

"I'm sure every one of us here today would agree that this year's regional convention program was absolutely fantastic!

 

And probably one of the most common comments that have been made is that many brothers and sisters have said "This convention has truly prepared us for the great tribulation." And we certainly feel that way.

 

But as our minds think about the great tribulation and the importance of Jesus' words, it's true, at times that our imagination, perhaps, becomes very active. We may have questions: How long will be the great tribulation? How will it affect me personally? Will I be able to get my medication? What about my cat?

 

Well, the short answer to all those intriguing questions is: We don't know. But there is something that we do know beyond any doubt whatsoever. Let's turn to the book of 2 Peter 2:9.

 

And this fact fills us with confidence as we look to the future, to the outbreak of the great tribulation. So, 2 Peter 2:9, there it tells us: "So, then, Jehovah knows how to rescue people of godly devotion out of trial."

 

Yes, brothers and sisters, we know Jehovah. We know his record. We've studied the Scriptures, and we totally believe that no matter what happens - even though we don't know the details of what the future holds - we believe that Jehovah knows how to rescue righteous persons. And we've seen time and time again how Jehovah does the unexpected. When we look through the Scriptures, that point is emphasized over and over again.

 

There are two scriptures that help to fortify this faith and belief that we have. Let's look at them together. The first one is found in the book of Ephesians, Ephesians 3:20.

 

Here the apostle Paul under inspiration tells us: "Now to the one who can, according to his power that is operating in us, do more than superabundantly beyond all the things we ask or conceive." Now, this is a fantastic expression. In the Writing Department, if we were to write this, I'm sure the proofreaders would correct it. But this is under inspiration.

 

For a start, let's think of the word "superabundantly." Now, the proofreaders may tell us, "For a start, 'abundant' is enough." But here we have "superabundantly." Now, it doesn't stop there, does it? Because Paul then says under inspiration, "more than superabundantly," and then it gets even better, "beyond all the things we ask or conceive."

 

This is certainly making the point, isn't it? And what is the point. Jehovah can do things beyond what we would expect. It's so interesting for us to note that Jehovah does not limit himself to what we ask for in our prayers. And we can be happy of that because he goes beyond anything that we could ever think of to solve our problems.

 

So, it's true, at times we may see no way out of our problems. We may feel overwhelmed. But remember, what does it say here? Jehovah has the power to "do more than superabundantly beyond all the things we ask or conceive."

 

Now the second scripture is in the book of Philippians 4:6. Here again, we're told, "Do not be anxious over anything but in everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving let your petitions be made known to God; and the peace of God that," now notice again, "surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and your mental powers by means of Christ Jesus."

 

Have you noticed in several of the talks today, the point is being made over and over again that this precious possession that we have is our relationship with Jehovah. We need to trust him.

 

Now, when the peace of God comes to us because of praying to Jehovah and trusting in him, what does it say here? Then "that surpasses all understanding."

 

Other translations put it this way: "surpasses all our dreams," "excels all human planning," "is more wonderful than we can imagine."

 

Truly, brothers and sisters, we don't need to know all the details of what the future holds. We know that our loving God, Jehovah, will do things in a wonderful way. Yes, he does the unexpected, and he does it with style. That's the amazing thing. 

 

As we read through the Scriptures, we see this over and over again. Let's think about Haman back in the days of Esther and Mordecai. Haman had a lot of money, a lot of influence, and a plan. He wanted to commit genocide to destroy all of God's people, and it looked like the plan was going to succeed. But Haman didn't know what Jehovah had in mind. 

 

Esther and Mordecai were in place. And how things turned out! The very day the the Jews should have been slaughtered and completely eradicated was the day that their enemies were killed instead. But as we read through those events, Jehovah did so many unexpected things.

 

Personally, I just love chapter 6. Right in the middle of this intrigue where we see what Jehovah is preparing, then there's an account about the king not being able to sleep. And, isn't it wonderful? You see Haman comes in at the wrong time for Haman. He assumes wrongly that the king is going to bless him. And what's the result? He has to be humiliated, walking around in front of Mordecai on a horse wearing the king's clothes! That's style!

 

Jehovah didn't have to do that. But when we look back on it, that really is style, isn't it? And we can be sure that Jehovah will continue to do these things for his people. 

 

Recently, of course, we just watched that beautiful presentation with regard to Hezekiah. Didn't that full-length movie help us to imagine exactly what happened at that time? But in the case of Hezekiah, what did he do in the time leading up to that event? Well, he fortified the city, he stopped up the wells so the Assyrians wouldn't be able to get water, he did all sorts of things to plan. And yet, none of that was needed. Why? He didn't realize what Jehovah was going to do - the unexpected!

 

We didn't even expect it when we saw that angel in the movie, did we? What a wonderful presentation it was! But, you see, Jehovah again did the unexpected. None of his people were thinking that Jehovah would do that. And yet, he had the situation under control.

 

And, of course, time and again, as we look through the Scriptures, we see this emphasized. Moses and the Israelites - if we were standing with them there on the shores of the Red Sea with the Egyptians coming behind us, who of us would have ever guessed that Jehovah was now going to part the Red Sea? I mean, that was unexpected! It was also unexpected that the Egyptians would be so stupid to follow the Israelites. And yet, it resulted in a wonderful victory for Jehovah's people.

 

You see, expect the unexpected when it comes to what Jehovah does. 

 

Now, thinking back to what the apostle Paul was inspired to say to the brothers in Philippi, let's think about the setting of when he wrote that and a little bit of the background.

 

The apostle Paul said, basically: "Don't worry. Pray because Jehovah can do the unexpected." 

 

Well, was Paul perhaps writing that particular time as an academic sitting behind a desk - someone who is testing out something he doesn't really know about? Of course not. We remember back at that time, in 60 to 61 C.E., the apostle Paul was in prison in Rome. He'd already experienced many, many different hardships. He knew what it was like to be in a time of trial. But even the very fact that he was writing to the brothers in Philippi is of interest. Let's just refresh our memories about this.

 

You'll see the record is in Acts 16. But what actually happened ten years before Paul wrote the letter to the brothers in Philippi? 

 

Well, Paul was in Asia Minor. He was trying to find somewhere the holy spirit would allow him to preach. So he went to one location - no. He went to another location - no. Eventually, he arrives at Troas, and there one evening, he sees a Macedonian man. And what does he say? "Step over into Macedonia."

 

Well, Paul naturally assumed this was Jehovah's direction, and immediately he made plans to step over into Macedonia. And this actually started the preaching work in Europe.

 

Well, he arrived first at the seaport of Neapolis, and then made his way to Philippi. Well, immediately there was some success. Some started to accept the message. But what happened shortly thereafter? Well, as we already mentioned today, the account tells us that Paul and Silas were beaten up and thrown into a dungeon - into a prison. 

 

Now, if you were Paul and you were sitting there in prison with your back paining, singing songs to bring yourself comfort, perhaps you would think this: "What is Jehovah doing? I mean, I was in Asia Minor. I could've preached anywhere in Asia Minor. But, no, the vision said, 'Step over into Macedonia.' Now, I'm assuming there's a big door of activity open, but now here I am in prison. Why did Jehovah direct me to come here?"

 

I'm sure - I think most of us would probably start thinking along that line and perhaps be discouraged. Perhaps, at times, you've felt you followed Jehovah's direction and then you've had problems. So we're used to understanding that situation.

 

But what happened that very night? An earthquake, the doors of the prison open up, the jailer and his family accept the truth - and then this is where it proves again Jehovah has style - those magistrates apologize to Paul. Paul says: "No, you take us out. And you escort us out of the city." Now, that's style!

 

And as we read, what do we notice? I imagine this in my mind. It says Paul said good-bye to Lydia. And I imagine, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm imagining the magistrates standing outside Lydia's home waiting for Paul to say good-bye and then continuing to escort them out of the city.

 

Now, not only is that style but it was also practical because it appears that, perhaps, Luke, the doctor, was left to stay there in Philippi and establish the congregation. And, no doubt, those magistrates would have thought twice before they did anything bad to the Christians after that. 

 

But, what's the point? At times, we may feel that there's no way out of our problems. But, surely, the lesson that we learn over and over and over again is that Jehovah can turn things completely around. Yes, even though we may speculate and think: "What if? Maybe he'll do this," in the end, when we look back on events we can't help but be impressed with how Jehovah handles things. He has everything under control.

 

So that brings us back to the regional convention - the Sunday program. We all enjoyed that symposium of talks with the little videos dealing with the great tribulation. Maybe for most of us, it took us a while to work out what they were doing in the basement. Usually, by the time there was a knock, then we started to realize that it was at the time of the great tribulation.

 

And with excitement, we watched as that door opened and there the police, the military, were facing our brothers and sisters. And you were waiting! Will the angel come and take them out? Will fire come from heaven? And we were left hanging. Why? The simple answer: We don't know.

 

But one thing is for sure: If Jehovah is on our side, we do not need to fear men. Yes, it's true. We don't know all the details of the great tribulation. We don't know exactly what's going to happen in the future. But, we do know that our loving heavenly Father, Jehovah God, has everything under control. Yes, he has style. So we can expect the unexpected!"

 

Praise Jehovah!💖😁