Should true Christians use the word "Disaster"?

[JW Insider]

On 4/10/2020 at 2:33 PM, Arauna said:

All he did was find the manuscripts which had the points in them which no-one noticed..... that is all.  No one had done any trouble to find them until now!

I think that if you read about these manuscripts (especially Aleppo and the ones derived from the same sources as Aleppo) you will see that these manuscripts have been studied and copied and recopied for a thousand years. It's impossible that no one noticed a consistent pattern of using at least two major vowel pointings on YHWH. In fact, if any reader of Hebrew had found mistakes on a Masorete scroll, there was a Masorete procedure to fix it as soon as possible, or if unfixable, to never use the scroll, even bury it.

There is an excellent description of the reason for two major vowel pointings in the Aleppo scroll (and Leningrad) here: https://yrm.org/yehovah-deception/

For example, the Leningrad codex, a codex that many advocates of Yehovah rely on, contains additional Hebrew spellings. Below are six examples where the Divine name contains different vowel points (transliteration approximate):

יְהוָה – Yehwah (Genesis 2:4)
יְהֹוָה – Yehowah (Genesis 3:14)
יֱהֹוִה – Yehowih (Judges 16:28)
יֱהוִה – Yehuwih (Genesis 15:2)
יְהֹוִה – Yehowih (1Kings 2:26)
יְהוִה – Yehwih (Ezekiel 24:24)

The Adonai Preceding Yehovah Dilemma

Those who argue that the vowels for Yehovah have no relation to Adonai have some explaining to do. Within the Leningrad codex and the Aleppo codex (see image below) is it merely coincidence that when the Tetragrammaton is preceded by Adonai, it receives different pointing? If Yehovah contains the proper and correct vowels, then why do we see the pattern of inserting the vowels for Elohim in the Tetragrammaton when Adonai proceeds it? This is a serious dilemma for the Yehovah proponents and clearly proves a redundant pattern. This is one of those elementary concepts that slips past the unlearned but is well understood in scholarship.

As seen (on p. 15) in the Aleppo Codex in Judges 16:28, the name YHWH appears twice with two different sets of vowel points with the approximate renderings “Yehwoh” and “Yehohiw.” “Yehwoh” derives from the vowel points of Adonai and “Yehohiw” derives from the vowel points of Elohim. When the word Adonai was in close proximity in the text to  YHWH, the Jews added the vowel points from Elohim to YHWH, indicating the reader was to read “Elohim.” This was to reduce redundancy with the Hebrew Adonai.  Strong’s OT:3069 explains this process: “Yehovih (yeh-ho-vee’); a variation of OT:3068 [used after OT:136, and pronounced by Jews as OT:430, in order to prevent the repetition of the same sound, since they elsewhere pronounce OT:3068 as OT:136]” (for clarification, OT:136 correspondents to “Adonai” and OT:430 to “Elohim”). According to the Englishmans Concordance, OT:3069 is found a total of 615 times in the Hebrew Old Testament.

Those who support Yehovah do so entirely on the vowel points added by the Masoretes. However, as we find in the Leningrad and Aleppo codices, along with many others, there are several different renderings for the Tetragrammaton. How it is possible to reconcile that the Jews both preserved the name Yehovah and explain why they introduced these alternate Hebrew spellings? Those who believe that Yehovah is the correct pronunciation, their only recourse would be to state that these other spellings were mistakes. However, based on the Talmud, the thought of a Jewish scribe making such a mistake, especially to the Divine name, is unthinkable. Jewish scribal rules required that if a Torah Scroll was found to contain any mistakes it could not be used, unless the mistake was resolved within  30 days. If not, the scroll was to be buried. Knowing this, even if these alternative pronunciations were mistakes, to believe that they were all missed and allowed to remain in the text is incredulous.

The other explanation is that the Jews willfully concealed the name with the vowel points from Adonai (as seen in Genesis 2:4 within the Leningrad codex) and Elohim (as seen in Judges 16:28 of the Leningrad and Aleppo codices). Considering the implausibility that the Jews overlooked these alternative spellings, the only logical conclusion is that they were aware and added the vowel points to instruct the reader not to pronounce the Divine name and replace it with the words “Adonai” and “Elohim.” As a side note, the Masoretes would often add the vowel points from Elohim to YHWH when the Tetragrammaton preceded the word “Adonai.” This was to reduce redundancy within the text.

[JW Insider]

There's another really good book (imo) on the topic which has large parts available for free on Google books: Pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton: A Historico-LInguistic Approach, by Steven Ortlepp.

The whole book is good, but the most relevant part is a long quote within the book from the Theological Workbook of the Old Testament (TWOT):

...

...

[JW Insider]

This probably is getting tedious, but just three more important points from the same author. One is about how Josephus, who as a priest claimed to know the pronunciation, indicated that YHWH was not 4 consonants but 4 "vowels," which matches additional historical information from the centuries just surrounding Josephus. This is from page 86/87 and I have also included some of the author's quote of Gesenius, p.87, and Gerard Gertoux, p.25. (Gerard Gertoux is often quoted by Witnesses.)

Gertoux reference, p. 25:

I can't quote the book forever, but again, much of it can be found here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=k9JEAgAAQBAJ

 

[Arauna]

A thank you to my friend above for clarifying the matter so excellently.

Mr Gordon: worked on translating the Dead Sea scrolls and still works on translating ancient Hebrew language on artifacts - old and newly found. It is his passion.

It is logical to me that Hebrew scholars did not bother on research (or only did superficial research ) on the name when their biblical tradition dictates that it is unacceptable to pronounce the name.  So when they recognize the tetragrammaton, they substitute it.

Gordon says that German translators in the 18th century did not do a good job on ancient Hebrew translations due  to Yiddish influence.

Mr Gorden did research on the Yiddish language and found that the German language influenced the pronunciation of the third letter  in the tetragrammaton as well. Since I speak some German and a semitic language, I understood the subtle change immediately.....  I could clearly see the mechanism.  So pronunciations of letters do definitely change over time...

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Actually, that's what literally THOUSANDS of people have done, specifically

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

YHWH was not 4 consonants but 4 "vowels," which matches additional historica

 There are no vowels... this is ..... thumbsuck.  These old scholars used conjecture. In Hebrew and Arabic one reads without vowels.  That is why the language is difficult. They only write down the consonants. Vowels are only put in to assist the reader. 

This is why it is amazing to me  that someone found old manuscripts with the point system actually supplied in them. No-one bothered to check it because they automatically just recognized the tetragrammaton (read only the consonants as they are used to) and did not notice them there.    

I am not here to win an argument or even to get you to accept the name yehovah - the choice is yours. 

By the way, the translation of the Lords prayer  - let your name be "sanctified' is the best possible translation - according to Gordon. 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Gordon this Gordon that. One man's opinions it seems. And a certain lady seems to put her trust in this one man.

So be it. YHWH = Yahweh.   

Have a good day. 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Use "Almighty True God", and all bases are covered.

...or, its "blahnblahblah", the rest of your life.

[Arauna]

This rare and ancient copy of the full Hebrew Bible, is on display at the Israel Museum (most prestigious Hebrew museum), and is listed along with 300-odd other items of unique universal and cultural importance.

The codex, or Crown of Aleppo (called Keter Aram Tzova in Hebrew), is on permanent display at the Israel Museum in Jerusalem. The provenance of this extremely important manuscript, which was written in Tiberias around 930 C.E.....

The manuscript has received UNESCO recognition which means it has unique universal and cultural importance to mankind.

[Arauna]

On 4/10/2020 at 10:41 PM, JW Insider said:

that's what literally THOUSANDS of people

Nehemia Gordon literally received help from a team of people who took a few years to go through manuscripts all over the world in different manuscript collections.....such as British museum etc. 

They went online and searched through them.  Some of these manuscripts had no points in them at all and so many manuscripts had the points put in only once or twice. THEREFORE the abundance of different sources with the same written pronunciation in it is in what makes the evidence compelling.

This is what made me realize that the pronunciation we use in English is the closest to the original pronunciation: IS  the ' diversity' of manuscripts which actually confirm the same pronunciation.

The  "old" scholars did not have such a magnificent diversity of manuscripts online to go and check....... so they focussed on the one or two exceptions in the points on the tetragrammaton to get something to write about.

That was then, and April 2020 is now - a time with much more resources to go and really check them.  If one still quotes ancient scholars with the, one or two exceptions, then it is like saying :  you healed a man on the sabbath. 

 

[JW Insider]

On 4/11/2020 at 12:05 AM, Arauna said:

I am not here to win an argument or even to get you to accept the name yehovah - the choice is yours.

You don't have to convince me. I already accept the name Yehovah as a perfectly acceptable pronunciation. Naturally, I use a "J" in English (Jehovah) but I stayed with the Bethel family in Wiesbaden for about two weeks, where the German equivalent for Jehovah is Jehova (NWT) and is therefore pronounced exactly as one would pronounce "Yehovah" in English.

On 4/11/2020 at 12:05 AM, Arauna said:

There are no vowels... this is ..... thumbsuck.  These old scholars used conjecture. In Hebrew and Arabic one reads without vowels.  That is why the language is difficult. They only write down the consonants. Vowels are only put in to assist the reader.

It's true that Hebrew is written only with consonants, but you already know that sometimes those consonants can be used as vowels. (Just like Arabic.) The consonant "yod" is sometimes the "I" vowel, and the consonant "vav" is sometimes the O or U vowel. Also, just as Cesar Chavez (Allen) said, the H can be silent, especially at the end of a syllable in Hebrew words and names.  Also, you probably already know from English that the Y can be a vowel. (For that matter, although unrelated, English words from Welsh can use W as a pure vowel as in the words cwm, and crwth.) I'm sure you also know that certain pure vowel combinations from several languages are transliterated into English with a Y. (Greek words ending in -IA, several Russian endings, etc.) And Cesar Chavez, above, is absolutely right about the relationship of W to UU: "double-U."

Josephus was a man who lived during the time of Jesus' apostles, and says he was a priest, and therefore would have known the pronunciation 1000 years before the Aleppo text was written. And he indicated that he knew the "correct" pronunciation. So when he says that the four consonants were "four vowels", we might think about what he would have meant:

Through diphthongs and vowel combinations, we know already that certain combinations of pure vowels will produce the Y and W sounds in many languages. For example, many English speakers say "triage" as "treeYage" or a Hawaiian "luau" as "looWoW.") Calling "H" a vowel instead of a consonant implies that it was silent at the end of each syllable, or refers to its effect in producing the previous vowel. This would happen if YHWH was pronounced something like ee-ah-oo-eh (eYAHuWay or Yahweh) in the time of Josephus. This fits exactly what Clement said around 200 C.E., spelling it more like: 'iaoue, which is also an approximation of Yahweh.

Whether Josephus and Clement were right, nearly a millennium before all the major Masorete manuscripts, we don't know. But we do know that pronunciations of all words changes over time. Look how English has changed from Middle English in one millennium.

Therefore "Jehovah," or "Yehovah" are perfectly acceptable versions of whatever and however people have pronounced YHWH throughout history (imo).

-----------------

We should also keep in mind that the Masoretes (Aleppo text, etc) changed several other things in the Bible, not just the half-dozen different vowel pointings on YHWH. For example they changed "YHWH cursed" to "YHWH blessed" in several places. (The NWT usually follows the Masoretic text, but corrects this theological "correction" that the Masoretes added.) This is known as the "tiqqune sopherim" and has been discussed and explained for many years in the NWT notes. It involves one type of "theological" change that the Aleppo text, for example, "adds to" or "takes away from" the Hebrew original text:

(From the book "Yahweh's Council" by E.White referring to the book "The Tiqqune Sopherim and Other Theological Corrections in the Masoretic Text of the Old Testament" by C. McCarthy.)

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

If one still quotes ancient scholars with the, one or two exceptions, then it is like saying :  you healed a man on the sabbath. 

I am surprised that you would accuse the Watch Tower Society of this. You are implying that the Watch Tower Society would look at a "miracle" and complain about it.

The most recent update from the WTS (2017) is exactly as was already pointed out above:

*** nwtsty A4 The Divine Name in the Hebrew Scriptures [2017]***
About a thousand years after the Hebrew Scriptures were completed, Jewish scholars developed a system of pronunciation points, or signs, by which to indicate what vowels to use when reading Hebrew. By that time, though, many Jews had the superstitious idea that it was wrong to say God’s personal name out loud, so they used substitute expressions. Thus, it seems that when they copied the Tetragrammaton, they combined the vowels for the substitute expressions with the four consonants representing the divine name. Therefore, the manuscripts with those vowel points do not help in determining how the name was originally pronounced in Hebrew. Some feel that the name was pronounced “Yahweh,” whereas others suggest different possibilities. A Dead Sea Scroll containing a portion of Leviticus in Greek transliterates the divine name Iao. Besides that form, early Greek writers also suggest the pronunciations Iae, I·a·beʹ, and I·a·ou·eʹ. However, there is no reason to be dogmatic. We simply do not know how God’s ancient servants pronounced this name in Hebrew.

In spite of this newer scholarship from current scholars who present a "vowel" based pronunciation, including IAO, IAE, and IAOUE, the 2017 Study Edition then goes on to explain that the NWT chooses "Jehovah" (in some NWT languages: Yehovah) based on much older scholarship:

*** nwtsty A4 The Divine Name in the Hebrew Scriptures ***
Explaining why he used “Jehovah” instead of “Yahweh” in his 1911 work Studies in the Psalms, respected Bible scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham said that he wanted to employ a “form of the name more familiar (while perfectly acceptable) to the general Bible-reading public.” In 1930 scholar A. F. Kirkpatrick made a similar point regarding the use of the form “Jehovah.” He said: “Modern grammarians argue that it ought to be read Yahveh or Yahaveh; but JEHOVAH seems firmly rooted in the English language, and the really important point is not the exact pronunciation, but the recognition that it is a Proper Name, not merely an appellative title like ‘Lord.’”

I should also add that Nehemia Gordon's reasoning is actually quite old. It's the exact same reasoning, based on the exact same Masorete-based sources, like the Aleppo mss., that influenced Catholic scholarship (many centuries ago) to produce Iehoua / Iehouah (Jehovah) from those same Hebrew vowel-pointed manuscripts.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Oh dear the debate continues. 

So does it seems that people are now agreeing on the Y instead of the J 

And what about the W instead of V. 

And does it seem that the last H is not sounded. 

So that would bring us to YHWH = Spoken as Yahwee (h) 

Reminds me a bit of PARIS which is actually pronounced Pahree or Paghee

A French native would pronounce “Pahree” or rather “Paghee” -the French r (Paris) is a raspy note, pronounced at the back of the throat; it is the sound that we make while gargling.7 Nov 201

BUT it is still written PARIS. 

So with Almighty God's true name i'll stick with YHWH = YAHWEH = pronounced as Yahwee 

After all, I answer to God through Christ, not to men. 

The only other choice I would have is to trust humans to make me decisions for me. 

Hope you all have a pleasant Sunday. 

[Srecko Sostar]

It seems how we are all "afflicted" with many things. Not only with Corona, religious doctrines, economy .... but also with pronunciation of letters and words :)))