Interesting thought about the initial rebellion

[xero]

So I'm just about done with "The Long War Against God: The History & Impact of the Creation/Evolution Conflict" and a couple of interesting notes in the book were that the idea of evolution existed from the beginning in the Sumerian texts and every ancient religious text (except the Bible). The author suggests that perhaps Satan was himself an evolutionist and did not believe that Jehovah created the universe, himself or any of the other angelic beings. He was not dogmatic about this, but it's a thought I never considered. It would certainly make more sense that if you didn't believe that Jehovah created the universe and that you simply sprang into being or perhaps such was the case at least w/Jehovah, that you might actually believe you could take him.

 

[Anna]

54 minutes ago, xero said:

The author suggests that perhaps Satan was himself an evolutionist and did not believe that Jehovah created the universe, himself or any of the other angelic beings

So then did Satan think Jehovah evolved also?

[Pudgy]

8 minutes ago, Anna said:

1 hour ago, xero said:

The author suggests that perhaps Satan was himself an evolutionist and did not believe that Jehovah created the universe, himself or any of the other angelic beings

So then did Satan think Jehovah evolved also?

The author is clearly responding to new evidence that Satan worships Hillary Clinton.

[Srecko Sostar]

Interesting article -  https://biologos.org/articles/the-genre-of-genesis-1-is-cosmogony

[Arauna]

The bible indicates that Satan knows that Jehovah exists and shudders - but he does not obey.  It is like a child that is on drugs and destroys his own life in front of a parent. 

Satan has seen the power of Jehovah - but it is rarely used destructively. Satan is the father of death and destruction, lies and deceit.  He knows that Jehovah is his creator but will spread lies to humankind about it.  Anything which takes away the honor from Jehovah whether it is atheism or false philosophy

[xero]

41 minutes ago, Arauna said:

The bible indicates that Satan knows that Jehovah exists and shudders - but he does not obey.  It is like a child that is on drugs and destroys his own life in front of a parent. 

Satan has seen the power of Jehovah - but it is rarely used destructively. Satan is the father of death and destruction, lies and deceit.  He knows that Jehovah is his creator but will spread lies to humankind about it.  Anything which takes away the honor from Jehovah whether it is atheism or false philosophy

Actually the "knowing he is his creator" is actually not specifically stated in scripture - this is what the author suggests the possibility is...

Yes @Anna the author is suggesting, as did the Sumerians, that all the gods evolved. This would include Jehovah. Not that the author believes this, but that the lie fostered was fostered by and believed by Satan (and that this could be the contribution to what any sane person would think was a foolish endeavor) was the heart of the rebellion.

 

[Arauna]

2 hours ago, xero said:

knowing he is his creator" is actually not specifically stated in scripture

 James 2¹⁹  You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.t

They believe - implies they know he is the creator - the only true god.

2 hours ago, xero said:

i the Sumerians, 

This is the new philosophy pushed by scholars - that all religions evolved.  The worship of the demons of half-gods  is based on the stories and subsequent worship of the Nephilim. They built the Tower of babel to get closer to heaven... and these demons were associated with the stars etc. So the was an origin for these beliefs and then it grew.  Evolution implies it came from nothing. 

[Pudgy]

2 hours ago, xero said:

Not that the author believes this, but that the lie fostered was fostered by and believed by Satan (and that this could be the contribution to what any sane person would think was a foolish endeavor) was the heart of the rebellion.

There is only ONE excuse for rebelling against your Sovereign.

.....if you win!

[Pudgy]

23 minutes ago, Arauna said:

James 2¹⁹  You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.t

They believe - implies they know he is the creator - the only true god.

Knowing...or rather BELIEVING that Jehovah is the only True God, as a stipulated fact is quite reasonable, all things considered.

But .... does not Jehovah God comment on his own "evolution" when his name is declared and it is understood, again based on "best evidence", to mean "I Am", or "I Will Become", or "I Will Prove To Be What I Shall Prove To Be" ?

...and the fact that people sacrificed their sons and daughters to the fires of Moloch truly surprised even Jehovah, and that he learned new things from that,

If the word for all  that does not imply "evolution" ...... what is the correct word?

[Arauna]

35 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

.if you win!

You are absolutely nuts if you think you can win anything!  However, Jehovah is just  and allowed the rebels to show what they can do - so that everyone can see both sides of the issue.  Jehovah does everything out of love and justice. We are free to choose whatever we want to do - as long as we do it in a just and moral way (morality is the good or bad choice).

 Not our own morality but Jehovah's morality.  He gives us Social studies 101.  He knows how society should function so no person hurts another.  If we follow his principles - no-one will hurt each other in any way and still have total freeedom! 

[Pudgy]

10 hours ago, xero said:

He was not dogmatic about this, but it's a thought I never considered. It would certainly make more sense that if you didn't believe that Jehovah created the universe and that you simply sprang into being or perhaps such was the case at least w/Jehovah, that you might actually believe you could take him.

When I speculate as I often doggedly do, on the real Nature of Jehovah, I look to Cosmology, the Science, to try and use facts at hand to "reverse engineer" what may or may not be true.

I accept as incontrovertible evidence that the way this Universe started was with the "Big Bang", about 14 billion years ago, and that time and space are one thing.... not two things ... because all gravity is local, and all time is local. It has been proved, over and over again that the speed of time is also local, and fluctuates according to the local gravity intensity and local "material" velocity.

It is also clear to me that linear time, with an "arrow of time", going from the present to the future started at the "Big Bang".  Conversely, we know absolutely NOTHING about Physics before the "Big Bang", and that it will be impossible for us to EVER know about that.

.....but I suspect to the point of certainty that anything before that was a "Universe" of a completely different sort, with time running at a completely different rate ... of there being no linear time whatsoever ... effectively "Time Happens All At Once".  

No beginning and No end.

There is an interesting Scripture describing Jehovah as "From Everlasting to Everlasting", which to my mind exactly describes this BBB (before the big bang) environment and scenario..

EVERYTHING in this Universe dies because of entropy ... and there are no exceptions. Even in very deep time unimaginable protons decay.

BBB is not subject to the laws of thermodynamics for one simple reason.

No "arrow of time".

And that I submit for your welcome analysis and criticism is WHY Jehovah can never die.

[Arauna]

20 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

to mean "I Am", o

This is a wrong translation. In Hebrew and Arabic " existence" is always implied in the verbs.  So the causative verb and hollow verb refers to him always existing before, currently existing and existing in future. Or proving who he is in future.

24 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

Moloch truly surprised even Jehovah, and that he learned new things from that,

No - he was not surprised, just bringing justice for the large numbers of of children murdered  in the name of false gods.

Evolution can also mean - change to something which already exists.  We know that Babylon the great stands for all religions which were spawned from the renewed rebellion against Jehovah led by Nimrod and the institution of false religion in opposition to him. Babylon was the capital city of this rebellion being built in opposition to God and was the originator of many false doctrines in most religions i.e. immortality of the soul.