Millions Now Living Will Never Die! by J.F. Rutherford ??????????? A few questions.

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

The bible clearly indicates (notthe GB) that one has to accept the ransom sacrifice and have faith in the resurrection of Jesus to be raised yourself! 

I am not sure of this claim, because on the basis of which all those who have never believed in Jesus, and belong to the righteous and the unjust, will then be able to be resurrected. They belong to various nations and religions from ancient times to the present day.

[Space Merchant]

On 10/10/2021 at 1:50 PM, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Revelation 20:4-6

Play

⁴  And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls* of those executed* for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand.a And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christb for 1,000 years. 

 

I know it's not a contradiction but it made me smile. 

It's no contradiction if you recognize the roots, it can also mean a living person/living soul, granted you are using the BSB, you should have seen that one coming, and if we are to add on to that, the BSB and some translations, even the NWT have near identical sources for the Greek text.

That being said: people/persons, animal/beast, life. All well rooted with "soul", even that of which is deceased be it person or beast.

We also have to remember the state of which John was in concerning visions (The Seals/First Seal/The Conqueror)

[TrueTomHarley]

9 hours ago, Pudgy said:

When Jesus was talking to his Disciples, was he teaching "Overlapping Generations?

I think it’s a little too soon to tell.

[Pudgy]

(1.)  You can read the biblical accounts, it’s either there or it’s not there.

(2.)  You can read the biblical accounts, it’s either there or it’s not there.

It’s not there.

 

[Space Merchant]

1 hour ago, Pudgy said:

(1.)  You can read the biblical accounts, it’s either there or it’s not there.

(2.)  You can read the biblical accounts, it’s either there or it’s not there.

It’s not there.

 

Well there is also an issue to this where some attempt to use spurious text.

• Example, this spurious verses: 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Led people to believe that they can drink poison, be it from snake or other, and assuming that they will not be harmed. and or not at Death's Door after consumption. Believe it or not, some people actually did take this literally and paid for it. On top of that, these same folks believe that they still have specific gifts of which the Apostles had in the past, i.e. have visions/be transfigured, as is with Inspired Prophets, despite the fact such ability died off with the last Apostle.

On the other side of the spectrum, it cannot be confused with anything pertaining to prophecy, which is written and or is to take place and or to come.

[Dmitar]

7 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

We also have to remember the state of which John was in concerning visions

Perhaps Peter's words can also help your argument in Act 3:21. 

²¹ For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration (restitution) of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.

The view in the late 19th century was synonymous with restitution, rather than the modern view of restoration. That was the purpose of Brother Rutherford's book. It would be the adequate assumption for this time period of this debate.

What were other Christian sects preaching about eternal damnation and how the wicked would be condemned forever without the possibility of being granted clemency from the original sin. They referred to those wicked ones, the second death. But, what about repentance and at what time? What was Christ words recorded in Luke 23:43? While none of us can forecast who will be saved, we do know how we can guarantee our own destruction. By not obeying God and not listening to Christ by God's inspired words.

That was the message of that period.

[BroRando]

40 minutes ago, NoisySrecko said:

Perhaps Peter's words can also help your argument in Act 3:21. 

²¹ For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration (restitution) of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.

The view in the late 19th century was synonymous with restitution, rather than the modern view of restoration. That was the purpose of Brother Rutherford's book. It would be the adequate assumption for this time period of this debate.

What were other Christian sects preaching about eternal damnation and how the wicked would be condemned forever without the possibility of being granted clemency from the original sin. They referred to those wicked ones, the second death. But, what about repentance and at what time? What was Christ words recorded in Luke 23:43? While none of us can forecast who will be saved, we do know how we can guarantee our own destruction. By not obeying God and not listening to Christ by God's inspired words.

That was the message of that period.

It's possible that the restitution began in 1919 with the spiritual paradise.  Enjoy your reading of the following explaination.

[Anna]

18 hours ago, Pudgy said:

That is not the question you should be asking.

The question you should be asking is this:

"When Jesus was talking to his Disciples, was he teaching "Overlapping Generations?".

The answer is NO!

 

I think the society is trying to word it as "contemporaries".....two groups of people, one group old, the other group younger and both groups having experienced the signs of the times.....or on this case experienced Br. Franz being alive (as an example). At least I think that's how it is 🤔 In any case, if explaining this requires mental gymnastics, then it's a bit fishy in my opinion....

[BroRando]

What is with all this Advertising?  Money Money Money !  Greed Greed Greeed !

 

“What! Do you not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, . . . nor greedy persons, . . . will inherit God’s kingdom.”

[JW Insider]

51 minutes ago, Anna said:

think the society is trying to word it as "contemporaries".....two groups of people, one group old, the other group younger and both groups having experienced the signs of the times.

I wonder if they are going to get rid of the idea that the first group "readily discerned the sign of Christ's presence in 1914." I expect that the new phrasing will become simply "they were alive to see the sign of Christ's presence in 1914."

*** w14 1/15 p. 31 pars. 15-16 “Let Your Kingdom Come”—But When? ***
The first group was on hand in 1914, and they readily discerned the sign of Christ’s presence in that year. Those who made up this group were not merely alive in 1914, but they were spirit-anointed as sons of God in or before that year.—Rom. 8:14-17.
16 The second group included in “this generation” are anointed contemporaries of the first group. They were not simply alive during the lifetime of those in the first group, but they were anointed with holy spirit during the time that those of the first group were still on earth.

It took until 1943 to get rid of the idea that Jesus' presence had started in 1874. So how could anyone in the first group readily "discern" the sign of Christ's presence in 1914?

Of course, there really were contemporary (overlapping) generations in 1914, just as there were contemporary (overlapping) generations who were alive when Jesus spoke of "this generation" in 33 CE. In Jesus' day, they were the generation of grandparents, the generation of parents and the generation of children, all alive together in 33 CE. Therefore, if we're honest, then, it would have been the generation of grandparents, parents, and children alive in 1914 who made up those contemporary (overlapping) generations in 1914. That means that any anointed persons born after 33 CE were NOT, strictly speaking, contemporaries with those who heard Jesus talk about the generation. And anyone born in 1915 or later was NOT, strictly speaking, a contemporary of those anointed who were alive in 1914.

I'm also wondering why they set up a rule restricting it to anointed only. Was it only anointed persons who heard about Jesus prophecy in 33 CE, and who survived until 70 CE to see that he was right? And, for an example, let's say that Jerusalem hadn't been burned by Rome until say around 150 CE, when all those actual contemporaries alive in 33 CE were long dead. Would we be defending Jesus' words with the idea that the apostle John must have grown old and died around the year 100 CE, but some babies who never met John were born just before he died, and those "babies" lived as contemporaries of John and were still alive in 150 CE?

Maybe, we would. But I think it's more likely that someone would think about the 120 year "generation" of Noah's day, and would take note that 33 to 150 CE is just under 120 years. 😉

[Anna]

26 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

It took until 1943 to get rid of the idea that Jesus' presence had started in 1874. So how could anyone in the first group readily "discern" the sign of Christ's presence in 1914?

Good question.

As you know, page 20 of the Kingdom Rules book shows an illustration of the Bible Students preaching, with the caption "In 1914, the Bible Students began to discern the sign of Christ’s invisible presence"

And then page 50, par 5 it says "As we saw in Chapter 2 of this book, the Bible Students spent decades pointing out that the year 1914 would be significant in fulfilling Bible prophecy.  However, at that time they believed that Christ’s presence had begun in 1874, that he had begun to rule in heaven in 1878..."

It's like two different people wrote chapter 2 and chapter 5 of the book. It's confusing....

 

[Anna]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

It took until 1943 to get rid of the idea that Jesus' presence had started in 1874.

Where can I find this?