Millions Now Living Will Never Die! by J.F. Rutherford ??????????? A few questions.

[Arauna]

4 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

those who become church members can be saved.

The Bible never taught any such doctrine.

But if your church teaches immortality of the soul ( you have been taught a lie) . But if your church has taught you that christ was immortal God and never died (because an immortal cannot die) - then you do not accept the ransom sacrifice. ... So the church you choose can mean your everlasting  life or death

[Arauna]

If one does not "Exercise faith" in christ. That means that you must accept that Jesus lived a self-sacrificing life and died in a self-sacrificing dead. His whole anointed life replaced the sacrifices offered year after year in the tabernacle and temple. 

This therefore means that one must have accurate knowledge of God and christ for everlasting life John 17:3. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

But if your church teaches immortality of the soul ( you have been taught a lie) . But if your church has taught you that christ was immortal God and never died (because an immortal cannot die) - then you do not accept the ransom sacrifice. ... So the church you choose can mean your everlasting  life or death

But the TRUE 'Church' is the ANOINTED.  I'm sure you already know that Aruana. 

The Temple of Living Stones with Jesus Christ as the Corner Stone. 

The church isn't a building and it isn't a religion. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Noisysrecko = Rando = Billy the kid = a dozen other Aka's   It's so funny. 

[BroRando]

7 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Noisysrecko = Rando = Billy the kid = a dozen other Aka's   It's so funny. 

I think someone has gotten her goat?   Nice try Pearl but you are floundering using terminolgy from Christendom.  Don't breath those fumes from your witches brew.

[Pudgy]

After reading most of the missives, above, I strongly suspect that on Judgment Day, whenever that might be, individually or en masse, there are going to be a LOT of surprised people, both inside and outside of the "Truth"

Meanwhile, down here, where the rubber meets the road, I also strongly suspect that our best chance for temporary happiness is to get one or more puppies.

..... good for about 12 to 18 years each .... and there is ALWAYS a plentiful supply!

[Dmitar]

9 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Noisysrecko = Rando = Billy the kid = a dozen other Aka's

[Dmitar]

4 hours ago, Pudgy said:

Meanwhile, down here, where the rubber meets the road, I also strongly suspect that our best chance for temporary happiness is to get one or more puppies.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

23 hours ago, Pudgy said:

both inside and outside of the "Truth"

what 'Truth' is that then ?  You cannot mean the JW Org.   

I was just thinking that most of the aggression on this forum seems to come  from those people who say they are JWs. 

As for puppies, they consume meat, they poop everywhere and they need constant care. 

When I go walking I wear these large 'cans' (blue headphones) attached to an MP3, and I listen to music. People look at me and laugh. An old man wearing 'cans'.  Then I look at all the people carrying little red bags. Bags of poo which they have to clean up when their little doggy has pood in a public place.  My 'cans' provide pleasure and need no attention. I laugh at all these people trying to pick up all the poo. 

23 hours ago, Pudgy said:

and there is ALWAYS a plentiful supply!

And this is because it's big business. People here in England sell puppies for hundreds of pounds. 

[JW Insider]

On 10/9/2021 at 1:45 PM, Anna said:

I think similar to you, that Rutherford may have meant people who were not yet Bible Students could be saved. At that time, as you know, there were no "Jehovah’s Witnesses", only Bible students associated with Russel and Co, Rutherford and Co, IBSA and WT. I think it must have been kind of ambiguous and not clear cut as it is today.

JFR was probably not even including those who were already Bible Students (proto-JWs) to be numbered in those millions. ALL of the Bible Students were included in the 144,000 going to heaven, but in those days the persons we now identify as "the great crowd of other sheep" were also anointed and going to heaven. In fact, all Christians were going to heaven according Bible Student teaching of that time. This meant all Christians who were not Bible Students were anointed and also going to heaven.

But the scriptures taught that all who go to heaven must die first:

(1 Corinthians 15:35-37) . . .Nevertheless, someone will say: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?” 36 You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies. 37 And as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but just a bare grain, whether of wheat or of some other kind of seed;

That verse would have especially applied to the "seed," the 144,000, and to repeat, ALL of the (few thousand) Bible Students in 1920 were considered to be a part of that 144,000. And Jesus along with the rest of 144,000 were "The Christ." Jesus was the head of the Christ, and the 144,000 were also "The Christ" (the rest of Christ's body).  

The Christ consists of Jesus glorified, the head, and the members of his body, which constitutes the church.   -- "Millions Now  Living Will Never Die, p.76

Since the Bible Students were in the 144,000 and considered to be "The Christ," they were also part of the propitiatory sacrifice, and would have especially fulfilled the verse about how it is reserved for men to die once for all time.

(Hebrews 9:26-28) . . .Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to do away with sin through the sacrifice of himself. ²⁷ And just as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this to receive a judgment, ²⁸ so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin, and he will be seen by those earnestly looking for him for their salvation.

But at that time it was believed that the great crowd would also die at Armageddon which can still be found on jw.org:

*** w66 2/15 p. 118 par. 13 Identifying the Present-Day Beneficiaries ***
In 1930, the book Light, in two volumes, gave a verse-for-verse commentary on the book of Revelation, but it still applied the “great multitude” of Revelation 7:9-17 (AV) to a spirit-begotten class of professed Christians who, after a martyr’s death at Armageddon, would each “get life as a spirit creature,” but secondary to the Bride of Christ. -- https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1966124?q="a+martyr's+death+at+Armageddon"&p=doc

The issues that come into play are about how many non-Christians were expected to be saved through Armageddon. Russell had given his opinion that only a very few would be "slaughtered" and that the vast majority of mankind living would accept the government that came to the fore after Armageddon (and Rutherford had not yet adjusted this view). In fact, as late as 1928, Rutherford could claim that he had not changed "a jot or tittle" from Russell's "Studies in the Scriptures."

But I think he was already hedging his bet on the number who would be saved through Armageddon. He said that "hundreds of thousands" of those alive in NYC in 1920 would never die. Look closely at the wording of the 1920 advertisement in the New York World newspaper below, and here on jw.org: https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-study-october-2020/1920-One-Hundred-Years-Ago/

NYC had a population of 5.6 million at the time. But smaller cities, a tenth as large, like Pittsburgh (pop 588,000) could only be conclusively proven to see "tens of thousands" never die.

Under Knorr/Franz, the expectation changed from what appears to be at least 5% to 10% surviving, down to about 0.1% surviving. (99.9% of the world population to be slaughtered, as FWF put it.)

*** w55 11/1 p. 648 Using Wisely the Reduced Time Left ***
or in trying to perpetuate this old system of things is wasted, and that is what more than 99.9 per cent of this earth’s population are doing.

*** w58 10/15 pp. 614-615 What Will Armageddon Mean for You? ***
THE ARMAGEDDON FORCES . . . On Satan’s side will be all the rest of mankind, more than 99.9 percent, even as we read: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” That includes all the governments of the world together with their supporters, the commercial, religious and social institutions. Even the professedly Christian organizations? Yes, because all such that are friends of the world are making themselves enemies of God.—1 John 5:19; Jas. 4:4.

That number apparently came from the fact that the number of Witnesses compared to the rest of the population was also about 0.1% therefore 99.9% non-Witnesses. Today, if you include all Memorial attendees, the number begins to approach 0.3%. So maybe only 99.7%?

[JW Insider]

15 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Noisysrecko = Rando = Billy the kid = a dozen other Aka's   It's so funny.

Patiently is confused about Rando (who is not NoisySrecko/BillyTheKid) . . .

15 hours ago, BroRando said:

I think someone has gotten her goat?   Nice try Pearl

And BroRando is confused about Patiently who is not "Witness" or "Pearl."

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@JW Insider Thank you for this fantastic comment above. Very constructive and very informative. 

I like this bit :-

The issues that come into play are about how many non-Christians were expected to be saved through Armageddon. Russell had given his opinion that only a very few would be "slaughtered" and that the vast majority of mankind living would accept the government that came to the fore after Armageddon (and Rutherford had not yet adjusted this view). In fact, as late as 1928, Rutherford could claim that he had not changed "a jot or tittle" from Russell's "Studies in the Scriptures."

Russell must have thought that Armageddon would not be as destructive as some magazines had shown, and that the ones slaughterd would have been on an individual basis, to allow the majority to survive. I am actually of that opinion myself. I like the scripture where Jesus says 

Berean Literal Bible
And Jesus said to him, "Do not forbid it; for whoever is not against us is for us." (Luke 9 : 50)

To me this has a deeper meaning.

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Under Knorr/Franz, the expectation changed from what appears to be at least 5% to 10% surviving, down to about 0.1% surviving. (99.9% of the world population to be slaughtered, as FWF put it.)

I think this is a very sad change of thought, and I don't believe it to be true.

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

That number apparently came from the fact that the number of Witnesses compared to the rest of the population was also about 0.1%. Today, if you include all Memorial attendees, the number begins to approach 0.3%. So maybe only 99.7%?

I think this also is sad. And once again i do not believe it to be true to what will actually happen.

We know that 'the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one', but it doesn't mean that all people  in that 'world' are deliberately wicked. 

From a Christian loving viewpoint it seems that Russell, and even Rutherford at first, had a very merciful and loving heart. But as the JW Org has 'progessed' it seems to have become a very hardened heart throughout. 

Would you be kind enough to tell me the 'official standpoint' / teaching / doctrine of the Watchtower/GB/Org, as to who will survive Armageddon and what Armageddon will consit of.  Or where would i find the answer ? 

Thank you once again for your time and patience on this topic.