Are JWs in America back on the 'door to door' work now ?

[Dmitar]

55 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

represent a time about half-way between Ezekiel and Revelation.

Good, now who, is Gog and Magog in Revelation, and when does it take effect?

[JW Insider]

Just now, Dmitar said:

Good, now who, is Gog and Magog in Revelation? 

I don't know.

[Dmitar]

5 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

don't know.

Come on!

Could the suggestion on the O.T. be accomplished as that time? Were the Saints gathered?

AMP Rev 20:8-9

8 And he will go forth to deceive and seduce and lead astray the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth — Gog and Magog — to muster them for war; their number is like the sand of the sea.  [Ezek 38:2,9,15,22.]

9 And they swarmed up over the broad plain of the earth and encircled the fortress (camp) of God's people (the saints) and the beloved city; but fire descended from heaven and consumed them.  [2 Kings 1:10-12; Ezek 38:2,22.]

The arguments have been about the King of the North and the King of the South. 

[JW Insider]

1 minute ago, Dmitar said:

Come on!

I'm very willing to listen. Sounds like you have a good idea.

[Srecko Sostar]

15 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

That's why the great apostasy that was started by Raymond Franz obligated the Watchtower to purge itself. This is why I refused to join the Bethel Family at that time. There were too many apostates that can out in the late 70s and 80s from Bethel for my spirituality. I'm glad I didn't.

Excellent info!

[Dmitar]

12 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Excellent info!

It's not meant to disparage the Watchtower more so than individuals. There's a difference. If I thought that institution was betraying its oath to serve God, I would drop them in a heartbeat. It's 2022, I haven't seen that yet. 

Therefore, it was my personal decision not to associate with apostate thinkers in Bethel. To me, they were the enemy of God, just like I think any apostate is an enemy of God. Therefore, I have NO personal association here, nor would I want to.

Keep in Mind, I PERSONALLY knew Fred and Raymond Franz in a personal level. My heart was broken by Raymond's betrayal.

[Witness]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

3 hours ago, Equivocation said:

@JW Insider - I couldn't really see what was said due to the warzone of yet another 1975 debate, I think SM said you had experience that day or something to that effect, how was it back then?

 

 

After reading what R.Franz said about the 1975 issue in "Crisis of Conscience" I'd say that it is probably the most accurate recounting of the 1975 situation.  I don't think anyone who was at Bethel during those years would find any inaccuracy in what he said.

 

1 hour ago, Equivocation said:

@Witness Respectfully, Madam, I do not think you understood what was said about Prophets and False Prophets. I recommend looking into what a legitimate Prophet and a False Prophet is and or represent. Doing so, would help you better understand. So, what I said is true, you are among those who have their own definition for these terms.

Remember, Ray (R.) Franz, was a GB member.  

Ray Franz, “In Search of Christian Freedom” – "I have seen people very greatly harmed by the false urgency surrounding the 1975 predictions, with some undergoing extreme emotional stress, families facing enduring economic strain for years, men who had given up good jobs having bouts with alcoholism due to the difficulty in finding new employment, elderly persons who faced a bleak future due to using insurance or similar funds prematurely, persons whose physical health was seriously damaged due to putting off surgery or other treatment.  If the sacrifice had been for truth, for God, for a noble purpose, then it would be worth it. But it was due to a mental concoction (Col 2:8) originating with one person and then promulgated by an organization and it ended in nothing, proved a complete fiction.

They may try to shrug it off, but the responsibility for all this rests with those who gave birth to the false hopes, who stirred up and excited illusionary expectations”  (p. 567)

 

 

Ray Franz, “In Search of Christian Freedom”, p. 425  – "The organization seeks to robe itself in the awesome role of a prophet of God and claim the deference that such a prophetic office merits.  Yet it disclaims the responsibility for accuracy that goes with the office.

If confronted with God’s words at Deuteronomy 18:20-22 about such prophetic accuracy, it presumes to set this aside as not applying to it in its role of a “genuine prophet”, and “authentic prophet class”.  By what right does it do so?  Does merely saying, “Well, we’re all imperfect”, excuse the organization from having that Biblical standard of a genuine prophet applied?    It asks its adherents to disregard its past trail, which is strewn with unfulfilled predications and now-rejected erroneous interpretations, and to continue to put near reverential trust in what it publishes, granting it the dignity and honor and credence due a prophet of God.  Instead of feeling humbled by the clear evidence of its erratic, zigzagging course, it becomes more strident in its claims, more dogmatic as to its pronouncements.  Is this the course of a “genuine prophet” of God?

When “the Assyrian” attacks, the elders must be absolutely convinced that Jehovah will deliver us. (3) At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.   W 13/11/15 p. 20

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

6 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

It's not meant to disparage the Watchtower more so than individuals. There's a difference. If I thought that institution was betraying its oath to serve God, I would drop them in a heartbeat. It's 2022, I haven't seen that yet. 

Therefore, it was my personal decision not to associate with apostate thinkers in Bethel. To me, they were the enemy of God, just like I think any apostate is an enemy of God. Therefore, I have NO personal association here, nor would I want to.

Keep in Mind, I PERSONALLY knew Fred and Raymond Franz in a personal level. My heart was broken by Raymond's betrayal.

No matter how you feel then or now, it's still good information. Why? Because it shows, or even proves, that an organization is made up of people who are in governing structures, no matter what level such individuals or clusters are according to Bethel, more influenced by the negative than the positive.

Also, the concentration of “apostates” in Bethel refutes claims in WTJWorg magazines that the organization is “run with hs”. If there were them at that time, then there have always been them until today.
Who runs WTJWorg?

Who did Raymond betray? What did he betray? Your image you had of him? Or you personally? Or God? Perhaps he betrayed you on that personal level. So it is more about emotion. He disappointed you emotionally, and not on issue of moral, principle, justice, Bible or God. 

 

[Dmitar]

@Witness, You just made my morning. Good coffee and humor, thanks!

[Dmitar]

12 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

No matter how you feel then or now, it's still good information. Why? Because it shows, or even proves, that an organization is made up of people who are in governing structures, no matter what level such individuals or clusters are according to Bethel, more influenced by the negative than the positive.

This just means we are as imperfect as the apostles and the first century Christian churches. However, out of a few, I won't expand it by exaggerating the numbers.

12 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Also, the concentration of “apostates” in Bethel refutes claims in WTJWorg magazines that the organization is “run with hs”. If there were them at that time, then there have always been them until today.

Then you need to further your research. It's documented. There's not too much to say about a traitor or traitors of the truth. They do that themselves.

12 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Who did Raymond betray? What did he betray?

God, and the inspired word of God. Don't make the argument about that traitor. His is meaningless. What counts, his betrayal, lead thousands of lives off the path of truth and knowledge. An effect still visible even in modern times.

If you don't get it, @Witness just promoted the nonsense of that person's book.

 

[Space Merchant]

@Witness The notion concerning Franz was mentioned in the original posts made towards you, so much so if you actually read from the evidence produced by Eqvo. As for the notion of a Prophet, there is legitimate evidence in which you didn't know the difference of a Prophet Inspired vs a Prophet Not Inspired, you interjected your branding, so to speak.

That being said, this is interesting, you ask questions of others, but when they address a question to you, you take offense.

@Srecko Sostar He's right though, at this point those quotations speak for itself, what he attested to was among the several notions concerning 1975 that was pulled from Yahoo Answers before that was shut down.

That being said, @Equivocation notice how they both ignored what you quoted and focused solely on bits of what you said prior to the quote, let alone them ignoring the book you referred to.

[Pudgy]

I first became aware of the Procter & Gamble satanic allegiance controversy in 1980, and if memory serves about that same time there was a skit on SNL about that but I don’t quite remember that I just remember the impression of it.

The congregation I attended in Portland Oregon knew about this controversy and told me about it as a fact. The fact that Procter & Gamble and its symbol was of satanic origin.

I also heard about this at work several different times.

I put it on my metal shelf of things that could be true, or could be false, but since I had no directed interest in such things and it didn’t affect my life I pretty much ignored it as much as I could. For me it came under the category of “Interesting if true, interesting if not true, why should I give a damn either way.”

Except for the people at work, I never talked to anybody that wasn’t a Jehovah’s Witness. This is pretty much been through my entire life as I do really don’t have any interest in talking to people at all, as I’m occupied with internal thoughts that keep me quite busy.

People would mention this to me, and occasionally I asked the question out of the blue to people, casually interested in the truth. I did notice that nobody had any proof of any sort and it was complete hearsay.

So what I did was this, I wrote a letter to Procter & Gamble asking them about the assertions of their satanic involvement, and this was of general conversation in the area at that time which was 1980, but I was distracted because Mount Saint Helens in Washington state just exploded, and Portland Oregon was covered in about 2 1/2 inches of volcanic ash.

Realizing from experience that’s the easiest way somebody can ignore you is to say they didn’t ever get the message, I sent it by certified mail, return receipt requested (the green card you may be familiar with), and pretty much forgot about the whole thing, in the same way I might ignore some nutty group in Australia, when I’m busy trying to work a heavy overtime schedule.

…. but one day I got a reply from Procter & Gamble and when I opened it up I was expecting to see a simple affirmation or simple denial perhaps with some documentation to prove it either way.

What I got was a history of the symbol of how it happened that boxes of their soap and it was Ivory soap at time would be shipped by boat up and down the rivers, etc. and as they were unloaded on the docks they started putting in chalk stars, moons or other things to separate their shipments from other shipments that were on the same boat.

As an aside it’s a same sort of thing is done as identifiers on Russian manufactured tanks to tell where they’re coming from or where they’re going to etc.

The correspondence included the History of how the symbol developed with some inserts perhaps five or six explaining this that or the other thing which might be considered somewhat related to my original question which was extremely simple but they never answered the question directly.

 Because of the “million words“ they used, most people, even the great majority of people, would assume they did answer the question but they probably couldn’t tell you what the answer was, but the impression was that Procter & Gamble was not involved in any satanic activity.

I try to never ever assume a persons motive, or their intentions or their knowledge or lack of knowledge unless they have a gun pointed at me and cackling like Vice President Kamila Harris For no apparent reason.

After studying the materials at Procter & Gamble sent me, It became quite clear that they were deliberately being ambiguous so as not to say anything at all while leaving the impression that they were not involved in the satanic activity.

My guess was that since their headquarters was in Cincinnati Ohio right on the river between Ohio and Kentucky, they have people of all religions creeds and ideas, and somewhere in their organization there might be a group of employees that are part of the satanic cult, but not part of their business.

Just a guess.

No more.

The fact is, and all I can say about it is this is when in the middle of a national and international controversy about this exact issue,  when directly asked a direct and unambiguous question, they waffled and never denied satanic influence association or involvement.

And it was quite clear to me they deliberately did this.

It’s like when a politician is asked a simple yes or no question, and the reply is so long, rambling, and manipulative that you don’t even want to ask a follow-up question because you don’t wanna have to go through that again.