Are JWs in America back on the 'door to door' work now ?

[xero]

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

I surely know that there are many people who think they are so wonderful that they surely think they are anointed.... or they could have this psychological epiphany that they are anointed.....almost like a supernatural event outside themselves.....  similar to people who have the emotional experience in the churches when they "receive the holy spirit"  - sometimes it is not the real thing because this "miracle" can be psychologically induced.   Or if a person was truly anointed ..... it does not mean they remain true wheat - they can become opposers of jehovah.... the Bible says, those who remain faithful to the end will be saved.  Being anointed does not mean they are automatically sealed.

While I am not denigrating your personal experience - it does not seem to me that you have remained in the fold of those participating in pure worship.   Your knowledge seems to have dwindled since I first met you here...... sad to say.  There is still time to repent and update your knowledge.

It could be that such "anointing" is just the eggs hatching.

 

[Arauna]

6 hours ago, Pudgy said:

was not meant as a taunt to make you angry,

I am not angry at all - so do not ascribe this to me.  I am just weary of repeating things.  And by the way -  you may think I need stimulation to think.... that is an assumption and not reality.

[Arauna]

29 minutes ago, Witness said:

Get out the Insight on the Scriptures Books.

My dear, I read it daily.  I love the Insight books. The difference between me and you is that i love this food from Jehovah. do you?

[TrueTomHarley]

36 minutes ago, xero said:

It could be that such "anointing" is just the eggs hatching.

 

Oh dear.

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

There is no doubt that 1914 marked a very important point of change in history. I have seen ex-JWs and non-JWs try to deny this,

I recently had someone try to undermine this is a completely novel way, by claiming that WWI was nothing unique, that many wars in history could be classified as “world wars.” He pointed to a published book to that effect. Remember, he told me, WWI was initially called the Great War, and was only renamed later. 

Yeah, when there proved to be a sequel, I replied. That would have been the perfect time to rename it World War VII if there was anything to this theory of yours. I swear, let Jehovah’s Witnesses take a stand on anything and a cottage industry of retro-scholars arises to torpedo it.

 

[Dmitar]

Since the society quoted Professor Robert Wohl in Watchtower articles, then it seems simple enough to conclude the generation that has experienced the most, would be a generation that could be compared to Christ theology. One cannot define a generation with limits, just as it is not possible to conclude one world would end and another begin.

It appears, there is a lack of understanding in the book I posted for reference, or there is a deliberate attempt to subvert its context. Nothing new for this forum.

 

*** w95 11/1 p. 18 par. 7 A Time to Keep Awake ***

⁷ In line with the above, professor of history Robert Wohl wrote in his book The Generation of 1914: “A historical generation is not defined by its chronological limits . . . It is not a zone of dates.” But he pointed out that World War I created “an overwhelming sense of rupture with the past,” and he added: “Those who lived through the war could never rid themselves of the belief that one world had ended and another begun in August 1914.” How true that is! It focuses on the crux of the matter. “This generation” of mankind since 1914 has experienced appalling changes. It has seen the earth drenched with the blood of millions. Warfare, genocide, terrorism, crime, and lawlessness have erupted worldwide. Famine, disease, and immorality have stalked our globe. Jesus prophesied: “You also, when you [his disciples] see these things occurring, know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, This generation will by no means pass away until all things occur.”—Luke 21:31, 32.

 Robert Wohl - The Generation of 1914 (1979)

But one thing does seem clear: The front taught an unforgettable lesson in generationalism to those who came to know it. For those risking their lives at the front were in great majority young, and those directing the war from the rear and providing reasons for the slaughter tended to be older. Hence the dichotomy of young versus old was invested with a new and powerful emotional charge and became a synonym for the distinction between the victims of the front and the heartless warmongers and profiteers of the rear. 29 Not that the war gave birth to the idea of a "new generation." That notion was a product of the decade before 1914 and a reflection of the atmosphere of novelty created by technological change, shifts in the structure of society, the threat of a general European war, and the appearance of a new culture. But the war did fortify and diffuse the consciousness of a new generation and gave plausibility to the idea of its unity by creating an overwhelming sense of rupture with the past. Those who lived through the war could never rid themselves of the belief that one world had ended and another begun in August 1914. And part of the appeal of the front derived precisely from the feeling that it was there amid the fire and flame that the new world was coming into being. P.222

 

Mentre began by distinguishing carefully between familial and social generations and between coevality and simple contemporaneity. Social generations, he pointed out, cannot be identified with the succession of fathers, sons, and grandsons in the family because new familial generations are being born every day. The movement of population is continuous and uninterrupted. Nor should social generations be defined in terms of all people coexisting in society at any given time, as the lexicographer Emile Littre had done in his authoritative dictionary. Indeed, the whole point about social generations and the reason for the utility of the concept was that contemporaries could be broken up into different age-groups. The division of society into age-groups occurred because the mass of active and productive adults changed totally and regularly every thirty years. With this change in personnel came a change in sensibility.

Inspired by Taine and the historian Fustel de Coulange, Mentre insisted that history should study the development of human sentiments and beliefs. Thus he rejected the idea that social generations were determined by the course of political development, the breakthroughs of science, the innovations of technology, the insights of philosophy, or the history of educational systems. Asocial generation was the product of a spiritual transformation, "a quiet labor of minds that gives birth to a new ideal of human activity." This spiritual transformation took place regularly within the minds and hearts of adolescents and young men. Intellectuallife developed through the principle of opposition; and this opposition derived ultimately from the struggle between fathers and their sons. Obeying the obscure yet inexorable law that sets children against their parents, the members of the younger generation revolted against the teaching of their elders and forged out of their experience a new system of values, a new hierarchy of ends, and a new gallery of models. Generation thus could be defined only "in terms of beliefs and desires, in psychological and moral terms." A social generation was not a means of dividing time, but a "spiritual unity." It was "a new way of feeling and understanding life," "an original spiritual milieu," "a collective state of mind incarnated in a human group that lasts a certain period of time. " Pp.19-20

[JW Insider]

16 hours ago, Dmitar said:

In line with the above, professor of history Robert Wohl wrote in his book The Generation of 1914: “A historical generation is not defined by its chronological limits . . . It is not a zone of dates.”

This is exactly the point. Thanks. The Watchtower has ALWAYS turned the generation into a zone of dates. When the Watchtower's previous zone of dates was no longer tenable, there was an excellent opportunity to understand it in the way that Robert Wohl would have described it. But instead, it became a zone of dates again when it was "determined" that the great tribulation must occur within the zone of dates before a younger generation of anointed (whose lives overlapped with the earlier generation of anointed) would themselves die out:

*** w10 6/15 p. 5 United in Love—Annual Meeting Report ***
Brother Barr made clear that the gathering would not continue indefinitely. He referred to Matthew 24:34, which says: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” He twice read the comment: “Jesus evidently meant that the lives of the anointed ones who were on hand when the sign began to be evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation.” We do not know the exact length of “this generation,” but it includes these two groups whose lives overlap. Even though the anointed vary in age, those in the two groups constituting the generation are contemporaries during part of the last days. How comforting it is to know that the younger anointed contemporaries of those older anointed ones who discerned the sign when it became evident beginning in 1914 will not die off before the great tribulation starts!

As Brother Splane has explained, by using a chart, that generation has now become a zone of dates from 1914 (through at least 1992 when Fred Franz died) and then extending only so far out as to when the last of the once-contemporary, younger "generation" of anointed have not completely died out.

That definition, although very specific, has become rather sloppy in the retelling. Just note the following two points that are now part of the explanation. I'll mark in red, the points that are problematic:

*** ws14 1/15 pp. 30-31 pars. 14-16 “Let Your Kingdom Come”—But When? ***
When prophecy was not fulfilled in the way that they expected in 1914, what did they do? Most of them continued serving Jehovah faithfully and endured trials and persecution. Over the years, most, if not all, of those anointed ones have remained faithful until death.
¹⁵ In his prophecy about the last days of Satan’s world, Jesus said: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen.” (Read Matthew 24:33-35.) When Jesus mentioned “this generation,” we understand that he was speaking about two groups of anointed Christians. The first group was present in 1914 and understood that Christ began ruling as King in that year. Those who made up this group were not only alive in 1914, but they had also been anointed by holy spirit in or before that year.—Romans 8:14-17.
¹⁶ All those in the second group included in “this generation” were not simply alive but were anointed with holy spirit during the time that some members of the first group were still alive on earth. So not every anointed person today is included in “this generation” whom Jesus spoke about. Today, those in the second group are getting older. Yet, Jesus’ words at Matthew 24:34 make us confident that at least some of “this generation will by no means pass away” before seeing the start of the great tribulation.

'...most, if not all..."

I'm not sure about the purpose of the claim made here, but the early Watchtowers indicated that "most" of the anointed during the period leading up to 1914 actually left the Watchtower Society. Many left immediately after 1914 failed to include the predictions for that year. (The Watchtower later pointed to 1915 as the actual date for the end of the Gentile Times.)  A much larger portion left during the 1917-1918 period based on the actions taken by Rutherford. By 1927-1928 when so many of Russell's teachings had been abandoned, it was apparently "MOST" of those who had been considered anointed in 1914 who had left the Watchtower Society by then. A few exceptions actually came back to the Watchtower. Long-time Governing Body member, Brother Karl Klein, left the Watchtower to join the Standfasters (Part of the "evil slave," per Rutherford), but Brother Klein came back. Listening to the stories and experiences from Karl Klein and Fred Franz and my great-grandfather, and one-time colporteur Percy Harding, they all claimed that it was MOST of the anointed who had been unfaithful, at least to the Watchtower. If the Watchtower's statement above is correct, it must be based on the idea that they were still faithful to Jehovah even after leaving the Watchtower Society, or that those who left were never anointed in the first place.

This is reminiscent of the claim made in 1982 about the earlier Liberian persecution:

*** w82 4/15 p. 26 par. 19 Enduring Joyfully Despite Persecution ***
While a few did give way and compromise because of fear, the great majority maintained integrity.

After that claim was made, someone pointed out the error and a correction was printed:

*** w82 7/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
. . . However, the Yearbook for 1977 states that the majority compromised their faith. Why this discrepancy?
The statement in The Watchtower for April 15, 1982, is in error. Actually, according to the Yearbook of 1977, pages 176 and 178, there were about 100 Liberian Witnesses who went through the Gbarnga persecution maintaining integrity, while approximately 200 compromised their faith.

"The first group was present in 1914 and understood that Christ began ruling as King in that year."

I think that all of us know the problem with this claim. The first group that was present in 1914 did NOT understand that Christ began ruling as King in that year. For several more years, they all continued to claim that Jesus did NOT begin ruling as King in that year. Instead, the Watchtower continued to teach them that Jesus had begun ruling as King in 1878. Hints came about half-a-decade later that this date might change, or even get pushed back from 1878 to 1874 (See Rutherford's famous Cedar Point talk in 1922). But it wasn't until more than a decade later, in the late 1920's and early 1930's that 1914 became the new date for Jesus to have begun ruling as King.

In fact, the idea that Jesus had been invisibly present since 1874 did not become officially and fully revised until 1943:

*** ka chap. 11 pp. 209-210 par. 55 “Here Is the Bridegroom!” ***
In the year 1943 the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society published the book “The Truth Shall Make You Free.” . . .  Naturally this did away with the year 1874 C.E. as the date of return of the Lord Jesus Christ and the beginning of his invisible presence or parousia. . . .  Page 324 of the above book positively says: “The King’s presence or parousia began in 1914.”

So, if none of the anointed ever really discerned the sign of Jesus Kingship and presence in 1914, and didn't discern it until 1943, then perhaps there wasn't even a real need to come up with the overlapping generations theory. I personally know someone who was anointed before 1943 who is still alive and faithful.

[Dmitar]

Yet, you still fail to see what the professor was attempting to discern by your meaningless example of two different issues, symbolic times lines, and generational limits. 

One can overlap while the other runs without restrains. Aside from learning scripture, take a course on human nature of probabilities. 

[Pudgy]

O.K.

let’s see ….

In the last two posts, Dmitar had 4-1/2 screens full of words, and JW Insider had 5-1/2 screens full of words.

According to the human nature of probabilities, JW Insider WINS!

ta-da!

[Dmitar]

Yes! @JW Insider won nothing, or did he. With uneducated students of the bible, you could be right! But twisting literature, as he usually does to spin his logic, is still meaningless. So, to bible scholars, it becomes nonsensical drivel, just like freaky mutts.

What I don't get, when ExJWs do it, it becomes an argument for you fakers of the truth. I don't mean that obtuse mutt, his D'fd, but everyone else.

Well, I came back just to prove the threat made by that vicious mutt wrong about surgery, dying and knowing about it. Continue fooling the public.

[Dmitar]

I see Alanf @xero has come back! You have free rein in this apostate site. Giddy up Donkey!!

[Pudgy]

Nyah! Nyah! Nyah!

I guess you showed ME! Ha ha ha!

MY Daddy can do a better science project than YOUR Daddy