THE WATCHTOWER HISTORY OF GOG OF MAGOG

[Srecko Sostar]

22 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Can you expand?

It is not necessary. I only combine terms from today’s practice and tradition in the WTJWorg administration with a raw example from the 1st century, from Jesus himself. Jesus did not need two elders as witnesses, but it was a multitude of men and women, and even children I suppose, who witnessed his “treatment” of sinners of all kinds. Whether his example is applicable today or not can be debated. 

For Jesus, the "congregation, church" (Matthew 18:15-17) was clearly a community of all believers, not just a clerical class with judicial and theological powers.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

10 hours ago, Pudgy said:

There is a lot that we do not know about Jesus and the apostles, I think somewhere it says something about if everything was written about Jesus the world cannot hold all the books…… Which may have been an exaggeration, an allusion,  or something.

Yes, for both thoughts.

10 hours ago, Pudgy said:

It’s very heartwarming to think that there was no discrimination between the five.

An empty stomach must be filled.

[Dmitar]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

It is not necessary. I only combine terms from today’s practice and tradition in the WTJWorg administration with a raw example from the 1st century, from Jesus himself. Jesus did not need two elders as witnesses

I believe you do need to explain your thought, unless you are agreeing that you don't understand the first century judicial system. Jesus was the "defendant" with a mission. There were plenty of "witnesses" against him that claimed that. 

When Jesus "Rebuked" Peter, it was for the same reason you are now claiming. Peter was speaking of man's judicial system, Christ wasn't.

Where did they take Jesus first?

 He was simply placed under arrest and taken into custody at the behest of the religious leaders who wanted him dead. At his first questioning, which was before a previous High Priest named Annas (John 18:13), not a single witness appeared that charged Jesus with committing any crime (verses 19 - 24).

Here is where you seem confused, and you maintain that confusion. You already know about the two witness. You also know what Matthew 18:15-17 says about it. Now, why should church Elders be the "responsible church leaders" to officiate the outcome of verse 17?

NIV Matt 18:17
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. 
 

There are many reasons why the church Elder plays an important role, but the simplest one to discern that is this one.

AMP James 5:14

14 Is anyone among you sick? He should call in the church elders (the spiritual guides). And they should pray over him, anointing him with oil in the Lord's name.
While you continue to take away what is written in scripture as a former Jehovah's Witness and now skeptic, the Church Elders still bear the responsibility to maintain the Church clean before God.

Now, in the O.T. who were the Levites? Leviticus and Numbers

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

For Jesus, the "congregation, church" (Matthew 18:15-17) was clearly a community of all believers, not just a clerical class with judicial and theological powers.

Now, concerning the text you posted. If the above criteria was not satisfactory, then look at it on how the system was implemented and what was its purpose.

The term "elder" ( church elders) is used frequently in the New Testament for church leaders (for example, Acts 11:30; 14:23; 1 Tim 5:17-19; Titus 1:5; 2 John 1; 3 John 1). The practice of calling church leaders "elders" was borrowed from Judaism, where the leaders, whether secular or religious, were designated by this title (compare Mark 7:3; 8:31; 11:27; 14:53; 15:1; etc.), because they would normally be chosen from the older members of the community. This element of age may also be reflected in the Christian usage of the term, but the primary component is that of leadership and not of age.
 

This is what happens when people confuse the issue between "church Elders" and "church leaders" by definition. Both terms reflect on the same meaning, spiritual leaders.

Act I - The Private Consultation (Gal. 2:1-2)

By contrast, Paul makes it clear that he himself was not impressed either by the persons or the positions of the church leaders. He respected them, of course. Otherwise, he would not have consulted with them privately, But he did not fear them or seek to buy their influence. All he wanted them to do was recognize "the grace of God" at work in his life and ministry (Gal 2:9), and this they did.

Now, there were spiritual leaders taking the wrong direction when it came to the gospel of Christ. You need to prove how the Watchtower judicial system is not inline with first century Christian Ethics.
For a long time now, no former Jehovah’s Witnesses nor present Jehovah's Witnesses here have made a compelling argument about that.

 

[Thinking]

On 2/2/2022 at 5:45 AM, Dmitar said:

How does this statement justify how Jesus and the apostles dealt with their everyday life of preaching the gospel? Don't influence the readers by your inaccurate depiction of bad Christian life. There is a difference between being actively zealous and being overbearing. Overbearing is a Christian that give bad reports constantly and is consistent with that message. Then you can say, that person is being too dogmatic.

Jesus was never like that ……and the Christian life back then had its problems as well…..the Corinthians cong was not all rosy……no cong even now is all rosy……we were warned  wolfs would enter in amongst us after Paul was gone…he was already dealing with superfine apostles at this time…with in the Christian congs of the time..

Facts Ditimar….deal with Facts….we are all works in progress ….

 

[Thinking]

On 1/14/2022 at 4:33 PM, Dmitar said:

If it's not too insulting for you. Can I ask what independent branch of the Bible Students you frequent? It seems like a group outside the USA.

The ones I deal with are a lot more brazen.

TOO MANY DOORS
"To everything there is a season...A time to kill, and a time to heal;... A time of war, and a time of peace." Ecclesiastes 3: 1-8."

"This time things became personal. Tim knew that this appeal would mean an FBI investigation, but they really got nosy! The investigators even talked to Susie's Dad. That just about did it. Susie understood, but not Mr. Deaver. "If Dave has to go and risk his life," he told her, "you are a traitor by dating this snivelling coward of a conscientious objector. It's bad enough that he is one of those pesty Jehovah's Witnesses, but he's a yellow-bellied coward on top of it."

 

I don’t frequent their groups but have listened to their talks…and FB pages…...and in my line of work have been able to speak with a few personally …..asking them questions etc…I’m also grateful for the Chicago Bible students who provide Russell’s writings at no profit….all the ones I’ve met are nice people….mind you I have met one I considered very childish and foolish….and who refuses to use Jehovahs name…and really hate us..and was a ex JW…

They all were a bit disappointing as  as to being very loose as to celebrating pagan holidays etc…and in a bit of a time warp….but lovely people generally .

 

[Srecko Sostar]

18 hours ago, Dmitar said:

the first century judicial system

The specificity of the Jewish judicial system should be recognized in its public process, not the chamber one where there are three who decide the guilt or innocence of one. Whether such a way is good or bad, I leave to the discussion. But if WTJWorg boasts of its authenticity and originality stemming from the Judeo-Christian milieu, then it is seen that in this matter they do not imitate the workings of the 1st century church.

[Dmitar]

11 hours ago, Thinking said:

Jesus was never like that ……and the Christian life back then had its problems as well…..the Corinthians cong was not all rosy……no cong even now is all rosy……we were warned  wolfs would enter in amongst us after Paul was gone…he was already dealing with superfine apostles at this time…with in the Christian congs of the time..

Facts Ditimar….deal with Facts….we are all works in progress ….

If you wish to submit facts on how the problems of ancient times aren't dealt with today, I'm happy to hear them instead of your personal biased opinion, that a former Jehovah's Witness needed to defend your view.  Therefore, the wolves you speak of are coming from here.

The misconception @Srecko Sostar has is with ancient judicial system that the Elders apply along with the two witness scriptural rule. He thinks the entire "congregation" needs to decide, instead of the Spiritual Guides deciding. Part of the congregation deciding wasn't dealt with, with the ancient church leaders?

@Srecko Sostar referenced Matthew 18:17 to make his compelling argument. How did the people in ancient time deal with the accused such as Jesus when he was brought before the church leaders? 

Srecko seems to indicate how Pontious Pilate dealt with the Jewish people to decide what should be done with Jesus. Is that how Jewish Law was supposed to be dealt with?

1. @Srecko Sostar didn't apply 1 Corinthians 6:1 to begin with.

2. @Srecko Sostar didn't consider Acts 15:5-7 with an emphasis in verse 6 However, the O.T. can be applied

6So the apostles and elders met to look into this matter.

3. @Srecko Sostar refused to heed bible principle with 2 Thessalonians 3:6, 14-15 and you can apply Romans 16:17-18

You seem to agree with @Srecko Sostar that the Elders and the governing body are overreaching. Why claim to be a dedicated Jehovah's Witness, as you indicate. Also, how well would it sit with secular authority, which all of you seem to forget, since Roman law dealt with the most serve punishment. So, how does your view mean FACTS to the visitor?

[Dmitar]

10 hours ago, Thinking said:

I don’t frequent their groups but have listened to their talks…and FB pages…...and in my line of work have been able to speak with a few personally …..asking them questions etc…I’m also grateful for the Chicago Bible students who provide Russell’s writings at no profit….all the ones I’ve met are nice people

How would you compare the Bible Student's Christian Conduct with the Christian conduct you Jehovah's Witnesses supply here?

I believe, I gave you an example of a harsh critic as a Bible Student against Jehovah's Witnesses. Does this mean you agree with such criticism, because the ones you've met are nice?

[Dmitar]

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But if WTJWorg boasts of its authenticity and originality stemming from the Judeo-Christian milieu, then it is seen that in this matter they do not imitate the workings of the 1st century church.

Since there in no such thing as a Judeo-Christian, as it would suggest ignorance or an unwillingness to convert to Christianity and people as such remain on the fence, against bible principle like @Pudgy, then this ideology is not incumbent of the first century judicial system.

You might also consider 1 Timothy 5:19-21 in the correct context, with an emphasis in verse 21 about the "elect" of honoring Elders. 

[Thinking]

3 hours ago, Dmitar said:

If you wish to submit facts on how the problems of ancient times aren't dealt with today, I'm happy to hear them instead of your personal biased opinion, that a former Jehovah's Witness needed to defend your view.  Therefore, the wolves you speak of are coming from here.

The misconception @Srecko Sostar has is with ancient judicial system that the Elders apply along with the two witness scriptural rule. He thinks the entire "congregation" needs to decide, instead of the Spiritual Guides deciding. Part of the congregation deciding wasn't dealt with, with the ancient church leaders?

@Srecko Sostar referenced Matthew 18:17 to make his compelling argument. How did the people in ancient time deal with the accused such as Jesus when he was brought before the church leaders? 

Srecko seems to indicate how Pontious Pilate dealt with the Jewish people to decide what should be done with Jesus. Is that how Jewish Law was supposed to be dealt with?

1. @Srecko Sostar didn't apply 1 Corinthians 6:1 to begin with.

2. @Srecko Sostar didn't consider Acts 15:5-7 with an emphasis in verse 6 However, the O.T. can be applied

6So the apostles and elders met to look into this matter.

3. @Srecko Sostar refused to heed bible principle with 2 Thessalonians 3:6, 14-15 and you can apply Romans 16:17-18

You seem to agree with @Srecko Sostar that the Elders and the governing body are overreaching. Why claim to be a dedicated Jehovah's Witness, as you indicate. Also, how well would it sit with secular authority, which all of you seem to forget, since Roman law dealt with the most serve punishment. So, how does your view mean FACTS to the visitor?

I don’t even read most of sreckos  posts so I’m not sure of what you are referring to…so sorry I cannot give you an answer

[Thinking]

3 hours ago, Dmitar said:

How would you compare the Bible Student's Christian Conduct with the Christian conduct you Jehovah's Witnesses supply here?

I believe, I gave you an example of a harsh critic as a Bible Student against Jehovah's Witnesses. Does this mean you agree with such criticism, because the ones you've met are nice?

All I know is generally they dont like us….as a people…..I cannot comment on their Christian conduct because I dont know them personally..as in over a long period of time…

They find a lot of faults with us…but that could work both ways…I read an account of a JW going and attending their meetings but was disappointed as he saw the same fault with in them as he did with us.

I do not recall the harsh critic you speak off…

 

[Dmitar]

3 hours ago, Thinking said:

I do not recall the harsh critic you speak off…

How covenant, since my illustration comes from Bible Student supported literature that you yourself just posted.

This time things became personal. Tim knew that this appeal would mean an FBI investigation, but they really got nosy! The investigators even talked to Susie's Dad. That just about did it. Susie understood, but not Mr. Deaver. "If Dave has to go and risk his life," he told her, "you are a traitor by dating this snivelling coward of a conscientious objector. It's bad enough that he is one of those pesty Jehovah's Witnesses, but he's a yellow-bellied coward on top of it."

It's a backdrop of how you think Bible Students are nice. Maybe the ones you've encountered are, just, not all. Some have vicious and extreme views about Jehovah's Witnesses.

Aside from allowing themselves to be influenced by man's traditions, they also have high regards about the CROSS and CROWN. Their signature logo.