The Days of Distress are coming to their end...

[Dmitar]

4 minutes ago, Arauna said:

We understand the outcome but the steps to get there are just as interesting.  When you have been in the truth a long time, each new beam of light on a dark road gives one something to savor.  Prophecies - the bible says do not neglect prophecy.  Why?- this tells us where we are in the stream of time when we see things going into fulfillment and gets us excited about the future! We can lift our heads up! 

This just means you know it. Does a visitor coming here know the same? Then, the question should be, is this a proper place to enlighten someone about God's purpose, or is it a place to quarrel? Interesting logic being used here.

[Arauna]

1 minute ago, Dmitar said:

What are those warnings to a none believer that doesn't understand the first thing about scripture?

What is a bad weather warning to someone who has never seen a water spout?  BUT Reasonable people will take a moment to listen. They always do.  It is the unreasonable people - the people who are occupied by fleshly things who do not take spiritual warnings seriously. 

IN any case - where is your faith in Jehovah?  Do you not believe that it is HE who draws people and gives them Holy spirit to understand?  Do not shoot the messenger!

[Arauna]

1 minute ago, Dmitar said:

proper place to enlighten someone about God's purpose, or is it a place to quarrel?

I should ask you that question ....... 

[Dmitar]

6 minutes ago, Arauna said:

What is a bad weather warning to someone who has never seen a water spout?  BUT Reasonable people will take a moment to listen. They always do.  It is the unreasonable people - the people who are occupied by fleshly things who do not take spiritual warnings seriously. 

How does this logic of yours, explain an experience that even a newborn has been challenged with, in one form or another? You reference, reasonable people. How does a reasonable Buddhist, that doesn't care about Christianity, give an intellectual response?

[Dmitar]

6 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I should ask you that question ....... 

What part. You, trying to promote, or being quarrelsome to ban? I make no excuses to justify my reason to be here for the visitors. 

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Yes but according to bible prophecy in revelations it went down into the abyss during WW2 and came out with life given it by the 7th head of the beast.

In Revelation, the Beast never came out of the abyss, only to descend again, then re-emerge as an “image” of itself.

The Wild Beast comes out of the sea. (Rev 13:1) This sea,  is symbolic, since even with your interpretation, we don’t see the UN literally coming out of the sea.

“Sea” - akin to ἅλς (better, allied to ταράσσω etc., from its tossing; cf. Vanicek, p. 303

The sea represents darkness, spiritual blindness, and the people who are within it – the abyss.

Isa 57:20 - "But the wicked are like the storm-tossed sea, for it cannot be still, and its water churns up mire and muck.

Zech 10:11 - The LORD will pass through the sea of distress and strike the waves of the sea; all the depths of the Nile will dry up. The pride of Assyria will be brought down, and the scepter of Egypt will come to an end.

Water/river can also signify people and teachings, either from Satan or from Jesus Christ.  (Rev 12:15; 17:1; 22:1)  Whatever we drink in, we become part if it.  John 7:38 

Of Satan, God says, “I will put hooks in your jaws and make the fish of your streams cling to your scales. I will haul you up from the middle of your Nile, and all the fish of your streams will cling to your scales.”  Ezek 29:4

Satan is the King of the abyss .  He is ruler over his “sea”.

Rev 9:11 - They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer). (Isa 33:1)

The Wild Beast emerges from the “sea”/abyss, and nowhere in Revelation does it say he rises up once again from the sea.

Rev 11:7 – “Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.”

Rev 17:8 – “The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction.”

Do you see anywhere in Revelation where the Beast descends into the abyss?  We only see that Satan was chained into this spiritual darkness of “not perceiving” for a symbolic thousand years.  Rev 20:3  He was prevented from DECEIVING the “nations”/God’s people.  How do we know it was God's people that he was prevented from deceiving?  Once he is let out, who does he attack?  All people of the world? It is the “saints” that he and his Beasts surround for the war of Armageddon, using DECEIT – DEMONIC EXPRESSIONS, NOT LITERAL ARMIES.  Rev 20:7-9; 16:13-16 

John is receiving visions of the future.  He knew of the trampling of God’s Temple by the Romans in the first century. He “saw” it - "the beast which you saw" .  That was a figurative Beast that came against Israel.  It was the “man of lawless”, that destroyed the physical Temple – defiling it with the uncircumcised. It “once was”. 

In the last days, the beast comes out of the abyss, the sea of wickedness, as the “man of lawlessness” again, warring against God’s spiritual Temple in the anointed ones – “Israel”.  (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22; Rev 13:5-7)  The temple is defiled by “uncircumcised” Gentiles who “represent the royal priesthood”.  2 Thess 2:3,4

“This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.”  Rev 13:18

“And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. ⁹ The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, ¹⁰ and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.” 2 Thess 2:7-10

A lie is a “demonic expression”…DECEIT.

Matt 24:24,25 - For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to DECEIVE, if possible, even the elect.

“elect” – chosen by God.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dmitar]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

“Sea” - akin to ἅλς (better, allied to ταράσσω etc., from its tossing; cf. Vanicek, p. 303

Hmm!

Friberg, Analytical Greek Lexicon

[Fri] θάλασσα, ης, ἡ (1) generally, as a large body of water sea (MK 9.42), in contrast to γῆ (land); (2) of specific seas: (a) Mediterranean Sea (AC 10.32); (b) Red Sea (AC 7.36); (3) lake, inland sea; the sea in Galilee: the Sea (MT 8.24), Sea of Galilee (MT 4.18), Sea of Tiberias (JN 21.1), Galilean Sea of Tiberias (JN 6.1); cf. Gennesaret Lake (λίμνη) (LU 5.1)

Gingrich, Greek NT Lexicon (GIN)

[GING] θάλασσα 
θάλασσα, ης, ἡ sea Mt 23:15; Mk 9:42; Ac 7:36; 10:6, 32; 2 Cor 11:26; Rv 8:8f; Lake (of Galilee) Mt 4:18; 8:24; J 6:1. [thalassic] [pg 88] 

Danker, Greek NT Lexicon (DAN)

[DANK] θάλασσα
θάλασσα,ης,ἡ [etym. unknown] – 1.sea Mt 18:6; 23:15; Mk 9:42; Lk 17:2, 6; Ac 4:24; Ro 9:27; 2 Cor 11:26; Js 1:6; Jd 13; of the Red Sea Ac 7:36; Hb 11:29; cp. 1 Cor 10:1f; of the Mediterranean Sea Ac 10:6 al. – 2. of an inland body of water lake: θ. τῆς Γαλιλαίας Lake (Sea) of Galilee  Mt 4:18; 15:29; Mk 1:16; 7:31; θ. τῆς Τιβεριάδος Lake of Tiberias  J 21:1 (cp. 6:1 ); both terms = Lake Gennesaret (s. Lk 5:1, where the author accurately uses the term λίμνη). Occasionally without qualifier in ref. to L. of G. Mt 8:24; 13:1; 14:24 v.l., 25f; Mk 2:13; 3:7 al. 

Is the abyss not darkness? How does that translate to "spiritual darkness" instead of literal darkness (Blinded) by Satan's influence? When explorers visit the Titanic in the abyss, don't they see it by turning on their lights? How will a true Christian see a literal darkness?

[Dmitar]

Just in case, people have a hard time understanding simple logic.

"[He knoweth what is in the darkness] What appears to man to be involved in darkness, and on which no light seems to shine. This may refer not only to what is concealed from man in the literal darkness of night, but to all that is mysterious; all that lies beyond the range of human inquiry; all that pertains to unseen worlds. An immensely large portion of the universe lies wholly beyond the range of human investigation at present, and is, of course, dark to man."
 

 

[Pudgy]

Yikes!

I find myself upvoting three of Dimitar’s posts in a row …. for really good ideas.

But then again, I actually read them in context, and not based on WHO wrote them, before opining.  
 

……silly me …..

[Witness]

5 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Is the abyss not darkness? How does that translate to "spiritual darkness" instead of literal darkness (Blinded) by Satan's influence? When explorers visit the Titanic in the abyss, don't they see it by turning on their lights? How will a true Christian see a literal darkness?

Allen, you just described two types of darkness; one is literal as men have labeled the deep part of the sea as the abyss, where the Titanic lies,  and one spiritual, where darkness envelopes the heart and mind, causing spiritual blindness.

2 Cor 4:4:  "Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

1 Tim 4:1 - "Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons."

Eph 4:18 -"Their minds are full of darkness; they wander far from the life God gives because they have closed their minds and hardened their hearts against him."

One doesn't need to be in a literal, physical place called the abyss, to be blinded of the truth - to be "not perceiving", the meaning of "abyss".  

 

5 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Hmm!

Friberg, Analytical Greek Lexicon

Revelation is a symbolic book (Rev 1:1)  If we take the sea as literal, shouldn't we view the Beast that rises out of it as literal?  The scriptures describe the symbolic meaning of the sea, which I provided.  

 

[Arauna]

10 hours ago, Dmitar said:

trying to promote, or being quarrelsome to ban

I am at peace - you seem to pick a quarrel from any word. I should know better than to get involved in a discussion with you.

[Dmitar]

12 hours ago, Witness said:

you just described two types of darkness; one is literal as men have labeled the deep part of the sea as the abyss, where the Titanic lies,  and one spiritual, where darkness envelopes the heart and mind, causing spiritual blindness.

 

12 hours ago, Witness said:

One doesn't need to be in a literal, physical place called the abyss, to be blinded of the truth - to be "not perceiving", the meaning of "abyss".

 

12 hours ago, Witness said:

One doesn't need to be in a literal, physical place called the abyss, to be blinded of the truth - to be "not perceiving", the meaning of "abyss".  

 

12 hours ago, Witness said:

Revelation is a symbolic book (Rev 1:1)  If we take the sea as literal, shouldn't we view the Beast that rises out of it as literal?  The scriptures describe the symbolic meaning of the sea, which I provided.  

Have I suggested any different? Please explain if you think I have?

The bad report comes from not compiling the Book of Revelation with the book of Daniel.

The transtemporal nature of the beast is also demonstrated by the fact, already noted, that the OT uses the same sea monster image to represent successive evil kingdoms spanning hundreds of years (see on 12:3 for references). Our analysis of Rev. 12:3 showed that these OT references to the sea monster are in John’s mind together with Daniel 7. In the OT the sea beast represents not merely oppressing nations but the system of spiritual evil standing behind the nations and manifesting itself in successive world empires. Dan. 7:12 notes that when each of the first three world empires was defeated, their evil spiritual life continued to exist in the kingdom that followed: “as for the rest of the beasts [the first three], their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them.” Furthermore, the affirmation that the kingdoms of Persia, Greece, and Rome had heavenly counterparts suggests that they were all puppets of an evil heavenly force (cf. Dan. 10:20; Pesikta de Rab Kahana 9).192

Satanic evil expressed itself through the kingdoms of Assyria, Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Sodom, and Rome. This system of evil will continue so to manifest itself in yet future kingdoms of the world, and has ability to manifest itself as well in economic, social, and religious structures on earth.193

The description of the beast from the sea as like the dragon of 12:3 (seven heads, ten horns, diadems) confirms that he has the same transhistorical nature as the dragon.194 Therefore, “seven” and “ten” refer not only to the severity of oppressive power and its worldwide effect but also to the complete cadre of antichristian power and the all-encompassing span of time during which these powers hold sway. The beast’s activities are temporally parallel with those of the dragon. Indeed, 12:3 shows that the beast also was in existence together with the dragon even before Christ’s resurrection.195 Test. Abr. 19:5, 7 likely also attests to the transtemporal nature of the dragon and the beast with seven heads: Abraham sees in a vision “seven fiery heads of the dragons,” which are interpreted to represent “seven ages” during which “Death” ravages the world by sending people of all ranks to Hades.
Beale, G. K. (1999). The book of Revelation : A commentary on the Greek text (686). Grand Rapids, Mich.; Carlisle, Cumbria: W.B. Eerdmans; Paternoster Press.

I have no problem with the ability of the U.N. being an image, and mark. Many Christian fellows believe in the same. Jehovah’s Witnesses don't have a monopoly on the U.N. being the image of the beast. The bad report is how it's being applied, not by that institution, but Jehovah's Witnesses and former Jehovah's Witnesses, here.
 

Some Christian Scholars believe the minor beast with two horns are the United States and Britain. Now, what is the anti-Christian power some Christian fellows refer to? False Religion and Apostates. That is also a sign of the image and mark.