I am reading: "Rutherford's Coup" by Rud Persson -- 600+ pages, and much too expensive!

[JW Insider]

I just paid over $39 for a book. And even though it's well over 600 pages, I don't know what the author was thinking. It's $55 in softcover and $65 in hardback. It's the kind of price you'd pay for a book of academic research.

Anyway I'd have to say that, after about 60 pages that I read this morning, it is clearly the most comprehensive, thorough, well-referenced, and seemingly accurate account I have ever read. It is very balanced, so far, and doesn't try to create negative "drama" out of guesswork. I've seen other authors, even Witnesses, do this sometimes.

Even recently, I've tried to get hold of many of the resources he uses and was unable for many of them. I do have a few pages of resources, that Persson doesn't seem to know about (or doesn't use), but they would only confirm his own research, as far as I can tell. He mentions getting some research from collectors of Bible Student history, and a person named Mike Castro in Rhode Island. I don't know if anyone knows whether Mike Castro is a Witness, but someone pointed him out to me when I was looking for a rare document (special Wt supplement not in the bound volumes because it only went to some subscribers), and he sent it to me in PDF format immediately, no questions asked. I'm afraid to find out that he might be an apostate, so I didn't ask 😮.

Anyway, the whole book title is: Rutherford's Coup: The Watchtower Succession Crisis of 1917 and Its Aftermath

https://www.amazon.com/Rutherfords-Coup-Watchtower-Succession-Aftermath/dp/1778143016/ref=sr_1_1?crid=10XAMD6TVT7N3&keywords=rud+persson&qid=1652964472&sprefix=%2Caps%2C53&sr=8-1

So far, I'm impressed. But one should be warned that the author, Rud Persson (pronounced Rude Person 😁) is a former Witness. Don't know whether he was DF'd, but he does say that he worked with Carl Olof Jonsson on research in the past.

[Anna]

Let us know what you find out that you already didn't know....in the closed club if you can 😊

Oh and thanks for this expression: "not creating  negative "drama" out of guesswork". I will try and remember that phrase because people tend to do this 99% of the time and it's very annoying! Now I will just respond with: "stop creating drama out if guesswork" instead of going into long explanations... that without facts you can't really judge....and you were not a fly on the wall....etc.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Anyway, the whole book title is: Rutherford's Coup: The Watchtower Succession Crisis of 1917 and Its Aftermath

 

If it is Rutherford’s coup and much too expensive are you sure it is not really Perrson’s coup?

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But one should be warned that the author, Rud Persson (pronounced Rude Person

Alan (either one, either spelling) wrote a book?

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, WalterPrescott said:

What's the difference if apostates call it a coup, takeover, etc.?

What's the interest to those claiming to be JW's? 

Rutherford, made a choice to move the Bible Students into a better understanding under the banner of JWs. There are many books from the Org that explain that process. Why do people here find it a need to be influenced by apostate views?

 

The direction of movement of the WTS organization after Russell's death may be called by some as a distance and apostasy from what was established as "the truth" by Russell. This Russell is now called a "messenger" in the JW circle, and is likened to John the Baptist as the messenger of Jesus Christ.
On the other hand, today's WTJWorg opted for an explanation in which every "old truth" was never a "lie" but only a stepping stone to the "new truth".
Certainly, such an idea of WTJWorg is unbearable, because the truth cannot be built on false theses. Can false theses lead to true doctrine? Obviously, this is possible in the theory and practice of "Rutherford's organization".

If there is already a tendency to compare and give a certain meaning to Russell that he is like John, then we can ask ourselves what “doctrinal errors” did John make while preaching Jesus? And how can this be applied to Russell?
The comparison of GB with Jesus is unknown. I don’t think it’s ever been so openly portrayed in the WTJWorg literature, but it is hidden in a previous comparison / illustration and in an attempt to portray historical figures from the near and far history of the organization.

[Thinking]

1 hour ago, WalterPrescott said:

Even Jesus was looked at as an apostate by some. There are differences. The most misunderstood word by many is its application. Russell, was learning something entirely new, just like Martin Luther. Instead of revision, he explored how to refine reformation as a Congregationalist.

What can be considered old truth, is what makes revisions possible. The point of those revisions are of course, reform. Expand the knowledge of truth, and not be bugged down on old light.

If it didn't, the Bible Student symbol of the cross and crown would still be part of the Org. Rutherford's interaction with Russell cannot be fully known. These books make a lot of speculation and assumptions. Many things could have been said in private within those two that not even the board of directors would have known. Remember, Rutherford was an attorney. Confidentiality was high on his mind.

Like the booklet "The Temple" specifies, The Chicago Class Bible Students, AFFILIATED with the International Bible Student Association has increased within a few years from a mere handful to six hundred people.

This proves, there were many collations, associated with the ISBA, of which, they conducted themselves independently. Rutherford made a change that no one from the old guard liked. Was it a coup? NO! Since there had been some within all those associations dissatisfied with Russell even before Rutherford entered the picture.

This book is no different from that of Shults. They just want to find gullible people to sell.

No one that I know of made that claim from his Temple, or Tabernacle. However, G-d does works in mysterious ways.

When someone says that God works in mysterious ways, they often mean that God does something completely opposite of our expectations. There are many places in the Bible that tell stories of God's direction in someone's life that leads that person down a road they never thought they would tread. Sometimes God tells His people to do things that seem strange or even meaningless, but end up being a redemptive or victorious part of their story.

The only church I know of that compared itself with Jesus was the Pope. Each church needs strong spiritual leaders.

 

 

That was a great answer…you have a lot of knowledge and experience…and express it so well…

Sometimes it’s like you are two different people…this one…I really like..I actually LEARN from such comments.

[Thinking]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

 

The direction of movement of the WTS organization after Russell's death may be called by some as a distance and apostasy from what was established as "the truth" by Russell. This Russell is now called a "messenger" in the JW circle, and is likened to John the Baptist as the messenger of Jesus Christ.
On the other hand, today's WTJWorg opted for an explanation in which every "old truth" was never a "lie" but only a stepping stone to the "new truth".
Certainly, such an idea of WTJWorg is unbearable, because the truth cannot be built on false theses. Can false theses lead to true doctrine? Obviously, this is possible in the theory and practice of "Rutherford's organization".

If there is already a tendency to compare and give a certain meaning to Russell that he is like John, then we can ask ourselves what “doctrinal errors” did John make while preaching Jesus? And how can this be applied to Russell?
The comparison of GB with Jesus is unknown. I don’t think it’s ever been so openly portrayed in the WTJWorg literature, but it is hidden in a previous comparison / illustration and in an attempt to portray historical figures from the near and far history of the organization.

I have never heard or read the GB likened to Jesus….and I dont know anyone who even thinks that?

[Thinking]

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I just paid over $39 for a book. And even though it's well over 600 pages, I don't know what the author was thinking. It's $55 in softcover and $65 in hardback. It's the kind of price you'd pay for a book of academic research.

Anyway I'd have to say that, after about 60 pages that I read this morning, it is clearly the most comprehensive, thorough, well-referenced, and seemingly accurate account I have ever read. It is very balanced, so far, and doesn't try to create negative "drama" out of guesswork. I've seen other authors, even Witnesses, do this sometimes.

Even recently, I've tried to get hold of many of the resources he uses and was unable for many of them. I do have a few pages of resources, that Persson doesn't seem to know about (or doesn't use), but they would only confirm his own research, as far as I can tell. He mentions getting some research from collectors of Bible Student history, and a person named Mike Castro in Rhode Island. I don't know if anyone knows whether Mike Castro is a Witness, but someone pointed him out to me when I was looking for a rare document (special Wt supplement not in the bound volumes because it only went to some subscribers), and he sent it to me in PDF format immediately, no questions asked. I'm afraid to find out that he might be an apostate, so I didn't ask 😮.

Anyway, the whole book title is: Rutherford's Coup: The Watchtower Succession Crisis of 1917 and Its Aftermath

https://www.amazon.com/Rutherfords-Coup-Watchtower-Succession-Aftermath/dp/1778143016/ref=sr_1_1?crid=10XAMD6TVT7N3&keywords=rud+persson&qid=1652964472&sprefix=%2Caps%2C53&sr=8-1

So far, I'm impressed. But one should be warned that the author, Rud Persson (pronounced Rude Person 😁) is a former Witness. Don't know whether he was DF'd, but he does say that he worked with Carl Olof Jonsson on research in the past.

Oh no not Carl Olaf Jonsson….that just wrecked it for me…

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, Thinking said:

I have never heard or read the GB likened to Jesus….and I dont know anyone who even thinks that?

The freedom to go in that direction of interpretation stems from the silly comparisons and logic of GB members. In style, "Jesus and JHVH have complete confidence in us (GB) so you rank and file JWs should have complete confidence in us too".
GB, on the other hand, claims for himself that he is the only FDS who shares only accurate spiritual food. If you want to ask me as a former JW, whose spiritual food could be the only health-spiritually correct one, then it is probably only from Jesus, not from the self-proclaimed members of the GB. Comparing the same kind of activity, and that is “sharing spiritual food,” from Jesus and / or GB cannot be in the same rank, class.
Because GB promotes the constant need to be trusted just as people trust Jesus, it sends a clear enough message that one should be extremely careful with GB.

How did Rutherford feel? In what role did he think he was?

[Thinking]

19 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The freedom to go in that direction of interpretation stems from the silly comparisons and logic of GB members. In style, "Jesus and JHVH have complete confidence in us (GB) so you rank and file JWs should have complete confidence in us too".
GB, on the other hand, claims for himself that he is the only FDS who shares only accurate spiritual food. If you want to ask me as a former JW, whose spiritual food could be the only health-spiritually correct one, then it is probably only from Jesus, not from the self-proclaimed members of the GB. Comparing the same kind of activity, and that is “sharing spiritual food,” from Jesus and / or GB cannot be in the same rank, class.
Because GB promotes the constant need to be trusted just as people trust Jesus, it sends a clear enough message that one should be extremely careful with GB.

How did Rutherford feel? In what role did he think he was?

Just be like a beroean and you should be good to go.

[xero]

I don't need to read 600 pages about a person who dies of anal cancer.

[TrueTomHarley]

13 minutes ago, xero said:

I don't need to read 600 pages about a person who dies of anal cancer.

Why do I want to attach a laughing emoji to this but somehow feel I shouldn’t?