I am reading: "Rutherford's Coup" by Rud Persson -- 600+ pages, and much too expensive!

[Anna]

What gets me is when we keep going on about obeying instructions in order to survive Armageddon. This weekends WT study mentioned it agaiin....comparing the GB to Joshuah and Zerubabel. (Otherwise the study was very good). "Sometimes God’s people received direction that did not appear to be practical from a human standpoint but turned out to be lifesaving". 
The WT gave a couple of current examples....just stopping short of mentioning getting vaccinated against covid (thank goodness).

Are we not putting too much emphasis on the organization being the saving power, in other words our salvation being dependent on instructions coming from imperfect men? Whereas salvation is clearly going to come from Jesus, and we may be anywhere doing anything when Jesus saves us. Or is the mark for survival from the secretaries ink horn contingent on having our backpack ready or hunkering down somewhere?? As if Jesus cannot save us uless we listen to these types of instructions. I always thought the criterion was dependent on pure worship. This whole life we live is a test of our loyalty to Jesus and Jehovah. Everything we do today and tomorrow, the choices we make with respect to pure worship is what places that mark on our foreheads. And after all these tests we encounter every day, then there will be another test to see how obedient we are to the GB?? Give me a break! Past Bible examples do show that there were certain procedures the people had to follow in order to survive, BUT the situation at Armageddon will be incomparable, it cannot be said to parallel any other situation before then. I don't know why we keep obsessing that it is the same. It's like regurgitating types and anti types again....drawing parallels where there are none.

[Anna]

Just to clarify a few things. I am not averse to cooperating with instructions. That is not what I am talking about at all. And I am very appreciative of the constant reminders in WT studies, talks etc. which help us to remain in pure worship. Very grateful for it, and I think the GB are doing an excellent job. And our family does have a backpack ready (ha!)
What really irritates me though is this constant need to harp on about the reason to obey now .....the reason being that if we get used to obeying now,  it will mean our salvation in the future when we have to obey this one last instruction (whatever "impractical" thing that will be) to get saved. That is wrong. It's like a veiled threat. 

[Srecko Sostar]

17 hours ago, WalterPrescott said:

Just remember, that comes from an Ex-Bethelite's account. I wouldn't place faith on anything an apostate writes, since it usually exaggerated for dramatic effect.

Exaggeration is not something invented by ex-JWs. I would not be surprised if some biblical texts are exaggerated in their description of events. Exaggeration or alteration of the description sometimes comes when things are retold. And this is often the case in this human activity, regardless of origin.

17 hours ago, WalterPrescott said:

Case in point, the book by Zoe Knox There are negative and positive points to religion. Rutherford was referring to the negative aspect of religion, which is a racket, even today. Yet, this person makes an assumption of what that person believes Rutherford’s thought was. False parameter and premise!

GB has often dealt with interpretations of the biblical text relating to Jesus' statements. And they used just this kind of parameter and premise you mentioned: It is like this: "We, GB, know what Jesus meant when he said this or that. It is therefore important that you now believe what we have changed in our interpretation." :))

 

[Srecko Sostar]

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I haven't heard enough about any of the others to know if they might be of any use.

There is a book written by someone long ago here in Croatia. The name is "Prison without Walls". I don’t remember ever reading it and right now I don’t know where it can be found.

[xero]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

Just to clarify a few things. I am not averse to cooperating with instructions. That is not what I am talking about at all. And I am very appreciative of the constant reminders in WT studies, talks etc. which help us to remain in pure worship. Very grateful for it, and I think the GB are doing an excellent job. And our family does have a backpack ready (ha!)
What really irritates me though is this constant need to harp on about the reason to obey now .....the reason being that if we get used to obeying now,  it will mean our salvation in the future when we have to obey this one last instruction (whatever "impractical" thing that will be) to get saved. That is wrong. It's like a veiled threat. 

Not particularly well-veiled. The problem as I see it is that it emboldens those who are already tyrants and bullies. When these become elders, they encourage more of the same cult-like behavior. I'm suspicious of anyone who is inclined to think of himself or any other human more than it is necessary to think. It's the same with the obsessive interest in the historical lint of the organization. If you want to do this with the actual bible, bible history, biblical archaeology and apologetics, then great! But this poking around the septic tank of the organization is unhealthy and unwholesome.

[Srecko Sostar]

11 hours ago, WalterPrescott said:

EHOVAH’S WITNESSES 2019

MARLEY COLE

Introduction to British Edition

by J. W. Felix

J. F. Rutherford— ‘The Kingdom Is Here!

‘WHO will be our pastor?’

The question rang out when Charles T. Russell died, and resounded through the ranks of International Bible Students around the world. ‘I will not be your pastor,’ replied Joseph F. Rutherford. He had been appointed to Pastor Russell’s place as president of the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society of Pennsylvania, of the Peoples Pulpit Association of New York, and the British corporation, the International Bible Students Association.

This reminded me of Space Merchant claiming that Rutherford also held the title of “Pastor”. From this quote it seems how JFR thought differently.

[Thinking]

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Just to clarify a few things. I am not averse to cooperating with instructions. That is not what I am talking about at all. And I am very appreciative of the constant reminders in WT studies, talks etc. which help us to remain in pure worship. Very grateful for it, and I think the GB are doing an excellent job. And our family does have a backpack ready (ha!)
What really irritates me though is this constant need to harp on about the reason to obey now .....the reason being that if we get used to obeying now,  it will mean our salvation in the future when we have to obey this one last instruction (whatever "impractical" thing that will be) to get saved. That is wrong. It's like a veiled threat. 

Sometimes I wonder if Jehovah allows these things to see who will follow man and who will have worked on their faith hard enough to to see thru this…bit like when Aaron built the golden calf and many even tho they demanded it were prepared to get all excited and party over it….where as others quietly stood back knowing it wasn’t right….actually I dont know if they quietly stood back as I would imagine Kaleb and Joshua have at least something to say about it….but been respectful of Aaron’s position I suppose…….there always seems to be these tests of following men or Our God…and again as Anna I don’t mean their excellent biblical advice…just these odd things of comparing themselves to prophets etc..

sorry JWI we seem to have derailed your and Wally’s communications 

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, WalterPrescott said:

12 hours ago, Thinking said:

Did he or did he not change the understanding that the ark no longer represented Jesus and baptism to meaning the ark represented the organization? 

Quite frankly, to answer your question would be to reteach you the fundamentals of bible understanding.

The simple answer is NO! Why JWI agrees with this false narrative seems to indicate he doesn't understand either.

The opposite should be understood.

I don't think the question was about what the "Flood" represented, but what the "Ark" represented. The Children book says it represents God's organization, as you saw. But I only brought up the Children book because someone here had just mentioned the book. You could actually go to MOST of Rutherford's books and find a similar statement.

Here's his book "Riches" (1936)

. . .

...

If it sounds odd to say that the "other sheep" must work with Jehovah's witnesses, it was because, in those years, only the anointed remnant were called Jehovah's witnesses. The "other sheep" were called Jonadabs.

In the Salvation book (1939) he also says the Ark represents God's organization. Curiously, this time he made Noah represent Jesus instead of the faithful remnant (faithful and discreet slave), but still had his sons and their wives represent the "other sheep" (Jonadabs). In this particular book (Salvation) he somehow left out the faithful remnant.

At any rate, you are probably aware that Rutherford consistently says that Noah's Ark represents God's organization, and that this means only Jehovah's witnesses could expect salvation.

[Thinking]

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I don't think the question was about what the "Flood" represented, but what the "Ark" represented. The Children book says it represents God's organization, as you saw. But I only brought up the Children book because someone here had just mentioned the book. You could actually go to MOST of Rutherford's books and find a similar statement.

Here's his book "Riches" (1936)

. . .

...

If it sounds odd to say that the "other sheep" must work with Jehovah's witnesses, it was because, in those years, only the anointed remnant were called Jehovah's witnesses. The "other sheep" were called Jonadabs.

In the Salvation book (1939) he also says the Ark represents God's organization. Curiously, this time he made Noah represent Jesus instead of the faithful remnant (faithful and discreet slave), but still had his sons and their wives represent the "other sheep" (Jonadabs). In this particular book (Salvation) he somehow left out the faithful remnant.

At any rate, you are probably aware that Rutherford consistently says that Noah's Ark represents God's organization, and that this means only Jehovah's witnesses could expect salvation.

Yes I’m aware of teaching on this..thanks for the info 

[JW Insider]

I moved a lot of the comments from here over top another topic:

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/89872-posts-moved-from-a-recent-topic-about-a-jfrutherford-book/

 

[JW Insider]

On 5/24/2022 at 3:38 PM, WalterPrescott said:

You might consider moving these last none Rutherford comments to the other topic you created.

Good idea. It actually deserves its own topic.

Done. I moved those comments here:

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/89872-posts-moved-from-a-recent-topic-about-a-jfrutherford-book/

 

[JW Insider]

18 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Sigh—I thought this was put into the closed group—that’s why I upvoted it—where it should have been in the first place (IMO) but it was not.

I did start moving it there, and as I read some of the posts, I realized that most of the posts couldn't be moved there and it would seem to some like we were just talking about people behind their back, as it were. Another choice was to lock this thread and allow no more discussion on it over here. Then a new one could be opened up in the Closed Club. At this point it just didn't seem right.