Posts moved from a recent topic about a J.F.Rutherford book

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I moved a lot of the comments from here over top another topic:

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/89872-posts-moved-from-a-recent-topic-about-a-jfrutherford-book/

 

Sigh—I thought this was put into the closed group—that’s why I upvoted it—where it should have been in the first place (IMO) but it was not.

 It is so wearing for opposers, who misunderstand fundamental ways of how God deals with humans, to malign the Witness organization based upon false premises. 

The trick is, not to sanitize the present, but to desanitize the past. Plenty of responsible ones in Bible history have said or done wrong or clumsy things, yet continued to be used prominently in Jehovah’s service. No reason to think it would be any different today.

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Sigh—I thought this was put into the closed group—that’s why I upvoted it—where it should have been in the first place (IMO) but it was not.

 It is so wearing for opposers, who misunderstand fundamental ways of how God deals with humans, to malign the Witness organization based upon false premises. 

The trick is, not to sanitize the present, but to desanitize the past. Plenty of responsible ones in Bible history have said or done wrong or clumsy things, yet continued to be used prominently in Jehovah’s service. No reason to think it would be any different today.

From the event related to Moses (and not only him), one could conclude differently. Just before entering the Promised Land, Moses ignored the instruction he received from God (concerning water for a thirsty people). The "punishment" was swift and irreversible.

The duty and privilege of leading the people to enter the Promised Land has been delegated to new people, Joshua and Caleb and others.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Can you imagine the participants here all pulling together in times of chaos? 

In times of serious importance, then Yes. But nothing that important goes on here.  

In my opinion most people here do have a few things thing in common. We all want God's Kingdom to be firmly established in Heaven and on Earth. We all want God through Yeshua / Jesus to rule over mankind. We all want peace on Earth. 

We just have different views as to how those things will be accomplished. 

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

From the event related to Moses (and not only him), one could conclude differently.

No, one could not. Again, you misunderstand everything.

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Just before entering the Promised Land, Moses ignored the instruction he received from God (concerning water for a thirsty people).

The day any member of the Governing Body takes full and personal credit for any deed performed on his watch, ignoring Jehovah, then and only then will your scripture have relevance. 

If you approach a Witness public speaker with commendation after a fine talk, he will more often than not murmur something to the effect that it is not he but Jehovah. He says this even though it is perfectly possible to give a persuasive talk without any input at all from Jehovah. Lots of people in the world speak persuasively.

So what are we to make of someone who takes full personal credit for doing what no human in a thousand years would be able to do?

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The "punishment" was swift and irreversible.

and in accord with the principle, ‘to he who has been given much, much will be demanded.’ It was needed discipline that will benefit Moses. 

Find an instance where a member of the Governing Body has taken personal credit for some deed, to the exclusion of Jehovah. We will all wait for your apology and retraction.

[Pudgy]

I always enjoyed the house to house work, but I never enjoyed getting up early in the morning, having to shave and put on a monkey suit … er …business suit and going out and sweating as if someone was hosing me down with a sprinkler.

I was told once that the Europeans can always tell Americans on the street because they are the worst dressed people in the world. To me I thought that was a compliment because I am not a “clothes horse” myself.

I strongly suspect, almost to the point of certainty, that if the Society would relax their dress standards and allow casualwear it would double or triple the publishers that would present themselves for Service.

One thing I know for an ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY …. and that is that the general public does NOT disparage casual dress or beards.

It has been 75 or so years since suits and Roman Army face shaving has been the norm.

However, my favorite form of Field Service would be to collect about a hundred or so tons of old magazines that have piled up at Witnesses’ houses, and over medium to large cities, shovel them out the back of a C-130 cargo plane.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

11 hours ago, Pudgy said:

I always enjoyed the house to house work, but I never enjoyed getting up early in the morning, having to shave and put on a monkey suit … er …business suit and going out and sweating as if someone was hosing me down with a sprinkler.

I was told once that the Europeans can always tell Americans on the street because they are the worst dressed people in the world. To me I thought that was a compliment because I am not a “clothes horse” myself.

I strongly suspect, almost to the point of certainty, that if the Society would relax their dress standards and allow casualwear it would double or triple the publishers that would present themselves for Service.

One thing I know for an ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY …. and that is that the general public does NOT disparage casual dress or beards.

It has been 75 or so years since suits and Roman Army face shaving has been the norm.

However, my favorite form of Field Service would be to collect about a hundred or so tons of old magazines that have piled up at Witnesses’ houses, and over medium to large cities, shovel them out the back of a C-130 cargo plane.

Love it !. What you seem to be saying possibly (and yes i have to be careful what i attribute to you) is that some of the rules and some of the practices handed down by the Governing Body, are in fact totally unecessary and 'wrong'. 

A certain Elder i know  is the literiture servant in a big multinational town near London. He covers all the literiture for three congregations that use the same Kingdom hall. This Elder is 80 years old, of poor health, and is deteriorating mentally. He tells me that none of the younger men in the congregation are interested in taking on the responsibility. And as you say 'old magizines' are a big problem. Brothers and sisters acutually take mags' from years ago back to the hall and just pile them up and leave them there. 

This same Elder actually 'dresses down' to go into the ministry. No suit, shirt sleves in the summer. Here in Devon England we were allowed to go into the ministry, in the countryside, in an open neck shirt and smart trousers. Devon being farming country people seem more ready to talk to a person dressed more 'normally', not 'poshed up'. At that time I actually believed the things I was told to tell others, so the ministry was very enjoyable. 

[Srecko Sostar]

13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The day any member of the Governing Body takes full and personal credit for any deed performed on his watch, ignoring Jehovah, then and only then will your scripture have relevance. 

Didn't they do that the moment they declared themselves responsible for the FDS service?

Didn't they do that when they warned the flock that they must be ready to obey every instruction from GB, no matter how unreasonable it seemed?

Didn't they do that when they said that God and Jesus showed complete confidence in them and that JW members should have such an attitude towards GB, too?

[Witness]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Didn't they do that the moment they declared themselves responsible for the FDS service?

Didn't they do that when they warned the flock that they must be ready to obey every instruction from GB, no matter how unreasonable it seemed?

Didn't they do that when they said that God and Jesus showed complete confidence in them and that JW members should have such an attitude towards GB, too?

 

Watchtower 2017, Feb. p. 26  "Who is Leading God's People Today?"

We can also remember the Governing Body by following its instructions and direction. The Governing Body gives us direction through our publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions. It also appoints circuit overseers, who then appoint elders. By carefully following the directions given to them, the circuit overseers and the elders show that they remember the Governing Body. And all of us show respect for our Leader, Jesus, by obeying the men he is using today.—Hebrews 13:17.

18 Another way that we can remember the Governing Body is by doing our best in the preaching work. Hebrews 13:7 urges Christians to imitate the faith of those taking the lead. The Governing Body has shown great faith by zealously preaching and promoting the good news. Are we supporting those brothers in this important work? If we are, we will feel happy when we hear Jesus tell us: “To the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.”—Matthew 25:34-40.

This is so ludicrous.  Where does the GB get their directions, if they are not inspired by Holy Spirit?  Isn't it interesting that the quote says to obey the GB, but show respect to Jesus.  It should be the other way around - obey Jesus and his words, and if these men are doing the same, we can then show them respect.  But as you pointed out, it is the GB's direction that must be upheld; and that, above any direction Jesus has already given us.  It is amazing to me that their words carry more weight in the minds of JWs, than those of Jesus Christ.  But it is planned it that way, they have blatantly compared themselves to the apostles.  Instead, they are the false ones that the apostle Paul and Jesus warned us about - 2 Cor 11:12-15

Jesus' words in Rev 2:2 - "I know what you have done—how hard you have worked and how you have endured. I also know that you cannot tolerate wicked people. You have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not apostles. You have discovered that they are liars."

1 John 4:1 - Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to determine if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

If JWs were obeying the words of Jesus, they would do what both he and the apostle John told us to do, that is to test what these men claim to be, by examining the "fruits"/teachings that they offer.  Matt 7:15-20   They would discover that they are liars.  

And the "least of these my brothers"?  The least of Christ's brothers are being held captive by the power these men have wielded over them. (Matt 24:48-51; Col 2:8; Rev 13:10,15)  The GB are the "great ones" of Mark 10:42-45 that Jesus warned his disciples not to imitate.  

 

[Witness]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Didn't they do that when they said that God and Jesus showed complete confidence in them and that JW members should have such an attitude towards GB, too?

"They will be traitors.  They will be reckless and conceited. They will love pleasure rather than God. ⁵ They will appear to have a godly life, but they will not let its power change them. Stay away from such people.

As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men oppose the truth. Their minds are corrupt, and the faith they teach is counterfeit. ⁹ Certainly, they won’t get very far. Like the stupidity of Jannes and Jambres, their stupidity will be plain to everyone."  2 Tim 3:4,5,8,9

The organization itself will reveal the GB's stupidity, and  "her" sins.  

The angel also said to me, “The waters you saw, on which the prostitute (GB) is sitting, are people, crowds, nations, and languages. (All JWs)  16 The ten horns (anointed inside, the "kings of the earth" Dan 7:24; Rev 17:12;Rev 1:5) and the beast (organization) you saw will hate the prostitute. They will leave her abandoned and naked. They will eat her flesh and burn her up in a fire. 17 God has made them do what he wants them to do. So they will give their kingdom to the beast until God’s words are carried out. 18 The woman you saw is the important city which dominates the kings of the earth.”  Rev 17:15-18

There are already movements by elders, to remove the GB.  

 

 

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

The organization itself will reveal the GB's stupidity, and  "her" sins.  

This process has been going on for decades. Every new "refining", "clarification" and "new light" is, essentially, a proclamation that previous JW scholars have spoken / written nonsense, stupidity.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

There are already movements by elders, to remove the GB.  

What do you mean?

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

There are already movements by elders, to remove the GB.

Sounds doubtful. Almost as if it needs to be true just to make that particular interpretation work. Worse than eisegesis.

[Anna]

On 5/24/2022 at 8:21 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

So does the Bible, most notably putting the singers up front.

What’s the big deal? Having just viewed the video for the midweek meeting about pulling unitedly should disaster strike, I find it impossible to grumble about it. If someone wants to pull my bacon out of the fire, and train me to do the same for others, why would I interfere with that? You could just view these bits of advice as given to overcome the natural human tendency to squabble and go off in a hundred different directions in times of stress. Can you imagine the participants here all pulling together in times of chaos? 

Don’t overthink it. When the time comes if you find you can’t do something, don’t.

It’s a little like when the Babylon Bee guys pressed Elon Musk into whether he would confess Jesus and be saved. After dancing around a little, Elon said ‘if Jesus is into saving people, I have no problem with that. Sure, why not?’

Do the same kind of dance yourself.

I agree, but that's not what I was talking about.

To me it looks more like they are trying to make us think that they will deliver some kind of "piece de resistance" which will save our lives at Armageddon and if we don't listen to instructions now, we may not listen to that special piece of instruction later on and as a consequence we will die. That is rubbish*. Again, I am not saying instructions are bad. It is the way this is being done. Using this type of reasoning as a coercive tool to obey instructions today. That's what I don't like. Not the listening to instructions.  The thing is, like this they have every Witness second guessing themselves with how far they should take today's instructions seriously, (vaccination being an example) and sitting on the edge of their seat in anticipation of some future imagined instruction, instead of focusing on what really matters. Too much focus on last minute "life saving" instructions coming from imperfect men. As I explained in my original post, the mark on our forehead is what qualifies each individual for survival. The way we live our life now. The mark for survival is not given at obedience to some instructions delivered at, or just before, Armageddon. Pure worship book: "Before the destruction comes, individuals need to be “sighing and groaning”—deeply grieved  at heart—over the wickedness of this world. And rather than hide their feelings, they must demonstrate by words and actions their devotion to pure worship. How can they do so? They need to react favorably to the preaching work that is being done today, to continue putting on a Christlike personality, to get baptized in symbol of their dedication to Jehovah, and to support Christ’s brothers loyally."  It doesn't say "And you must listen to instructions to go and hide in an attic/basement/forest and get vaccinated" Or whatever the case may be....

*It’s as stupid as saying you all must get vaccinated in order to get saved at Armageddon.