The truth about Armageddon...

[Chioke Lin]

16 minutes ago, Arauna said:

No, we do not do the same. We do not promote man-made schemes

This is all well and fine for the Org. The problem here, you are dealing with people that are opposed to the Org, and it's teachings. So, to them, they feel we are promoting man-made schemes. That's my point. Unless my English is so bad that it cannot be understood, commentators need to see my intent, and not convict, just because someone painted a bullseye on my back and commentators now believe something that is not factual. Too much opposition from both sides. That's the perception I'm getting.

I thought this is a discussion forum about the bible, not about the person. Perhaps, it's time to find a better forum.

[Arauna]

55 minutes ago, Chioke Lin said:

There seems to be some misleading words with this interpretation of the bible. 

Good for you! Witness is known here as an apostate and most of us ignore her - although she has some followers who think like she does. 

58 minutes ago, Chioke Lin said:

marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city

It is called Gog and Magog because the situation will ge very similar to Armageddon, wherein the enemies of Jehovah's rule will unify and form a coalition to destroy those who are faithful and holy  here on earth.... those who obey instructions from Jehovahs appointed king. . Jehovah will once again step in and save those loyal to Him. He will remove all those who have been seduced by Satan - all  opposors finally. No prolonged rebellion will be tolerated since the original issue, of who is the best ruler for the earth, has been proven.

 

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Chioke Lin said:

There seems to be some misleading words with this interpretation of the bible. 

⁹ They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

This passage is referring to the people of the world, not the saints in heaven.

It was the KJV.  You can see for yourself.    https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g40/kjv/tr/0-1/

The KJV translates Strong's G40 in the following manner: holy (161x), saints (61x), Holy One (4x), miscellaneous (3x).

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. most holy thing, a saint

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)

ἅγιος hágios, hag'-ee-os; from ἅγος hágos (an awful thing) (compare G53, G2282); sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated):—(most) holy (one, thing), saint.

 

[Witness]

46 minutes ago, Arauna said:

It is called Gog and Magog because the situation will ge very similar to Armageddon,

Two Armageddons!  Do you take that message to the door?  

[BroRando]

3 hours ago, Chioke Lin said:

There seems to be some misleading words with this interpretation of the bible. 

⁹ They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

This passage is referring to the people of the world, not the saints in heaven.

Actually the scripture in its context is speaking about God's People. This event of Gog and Magog is a rebellion of those whom are influenced by Satan as he is released from the abyss. Even though, it is Post-Millennial, the people in this rebellion come agianst God's Kingdom with the the same intense hatred for God's Name JEHOVAH, His Sovereignity, and Kingdom.

 Just like Gog and Magog will happen at a specified time allotted.. so it goes with the attack from Gog of Magog.  Just like the Last Days that begun in 1914, they last for an allotted amount of time. The same 'time limit' can apllied to Gog of Magog exsistence.

Few, very few people gained the discernment that Gog of Magog attack has already begun and now coming to its conclusion. We read, "So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus." (Rev 12:17)

Did you notice the word WAR in the scripture?  So when will Satan strike?  The attack has already begun... back in 1919.  How long will it last? "And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven say with a loud voice: “Woe, woe, woe to those dwelling on the earth because of the rest of the trumpet blasts of the three angels who are about to blow their trumpets!” (Rev 8:13)  If each woe is a period of testing, then one can attain the timed event.  Afterall, the Manifestions of Propehcies are 'timed events'.

* Notice how the Watchtower strings together 1919 and the very next sentence, mentions now at the end of the  thousand years. 

[Chioke Lin]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

It is called Gog and Magog because the situation will ge very similar to Armageddon, wherein the enemies of Jehovah's rule will unify and form a coalition to destroy those who are faithful and holy  here on earth.... those who obey instructions from Jehovahs appointed king. . Jehovah will once again step in and save those loyal to Him. He will remove all those who have been seduced by Satan - all  opposors finally. No prolonged rebellion will be tolerated since the original issue, of who is the best ruler for the earth, has been proven.

Then it's not just the Org to have similar understanding. Once again, the discussion shouldn't be about an individual, but how we prove it to the public. How we arrive with our conclusions. It shouldn't matter if a commentator is an opposer.

20:7-8

20:7-8. John was told what would happen at the conclusion of the thousand years. Satan will be released from the Abyss, his prison, and will make a final attempt to induce nations - called Gog and Magog - to come and battle with him against Christ. Satan's release will produce a worldwide rebellion against the millennial reign of Christ. The armies will be so vast in numbers that they are said to be like the sand on the seashore.

Who are these who will follow Satan? Those who survive the Tribulation will enter the Millennium in their natural bodies, and they will bear children and repopulate the earth (Isa 65:18-25). Under ideal circumstances in which all know about Jesus Christ (cf. Jer 31:33-34), many will outwardly profess faith in Christ without actually placing faith in Him for salvation. The shallowness of their professions will become apparent when Satan is released. The multitudes who follow Satan are evidently those who have never been born again in the millennial kingdom.
(from Bible Knowledge Commentary/Old Testament Copyright © 1983, 2000 Cook All rights reserved.)

Is all this commentary correct? Some of it is, some of it is speculation of the writer. But, what is similar to prove, it's not just the Organization interpreting the bible correctly.

Apparently, you commentators think, I'm refuting your understanding. I'm not. I'm questioning whether it conforms to how the Organization interpretation of the bible. 
 

[Chioke Lin]

8 minutes ago, BroRando said:

Actually the scripture in its context is speaking about God's People.

My post agrees with your assessment.

[Chioke Lin]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

It was the KJV.  You can see for yourself.

Yes, commentator. That's why I mentioned the KJV, ESV, and NAS on my previous post. They have the same interpretation. The point about these bibles, it confuses the issue in verse 8. There cannot be any conspiracies with the bible's interpretation. That was the reason I posted the lexicon that refutes that understanding. It doesn't mean, the saints in heaven, but the holy ones on earth after they become sinless. They, of course, become God's holy saints on earth. A blemish free temple of God.

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Chioke Lin said:

Yes, commentator. That's why I mentioned the KJV, ESV, and NAS on my previous post. They have the same interpretation. The point about these bibles, it confuses the issue in verse 8. There cannot be any conspiracies with the bible's interpretation. That was the reason I posted the lexicon that refutes that understanding. It doesn't mean, the saints in heaven, but the holy ones on earth after they become sinless. They, of course, become God's holy saints on earth. A blemish free temple of God.

I know that’s what you believe, Allen. By the way, you are very cordial this time around.  Well appreciated.  Only anointed priests, whether physically anointed in the early temple arrangement, or spiritually anointed today, are allowed to serve in the Temple sanctuary of God.  That would never change. They ARE the Temple.  (1 Cor 3:16,17) 

 it-1 pp. 513-514 -  Jesus Christ is Scripturally spoken of as the “foundation cornerstone” of the Christian congregation, which is likened to a spiritual house. Through Isaiah, Jehovah foretold that He would lay in Zion as a foundation “a stone, a tried stone, the precious corner of a sure foundation.” (Isa 28:16) Peter quoted and applied to Jesus Christ this prophecy regarding the “foundation cornerstone” on which individual anointed Christians are built up as “living stones,” to become a spiritual house or temple for Jehovah. (1Pe 2:4-6)  Just as the topmost stone of a building is conspicuous, so Jesus Christ is the crowning stone of the Christian congregation of anointed ones, which is likened to a spiritual temple. 

Anointed Christians on earth are likened to a temple, Jesus Christ being its “foundation cornerstone.” (See CORNERSTONE.) it-2 pp. 1036-1037

w69 5/1 pp. 270-277   “The spiritual temple may be represented in a local congregation of Jehovah’s witnesses by the presence therein of one or more anointed followers of Jesus Christ.”

Eph 2:20-22

The word for “saint” in Rev 20:9 is the same word used in the following scriptures:

Acts 9:41; 26:10; Rom 12:13; 15:25; 16:2; 16:15…and it goes on. Rev 11:18; 13:7,10; 14:12;15:3;17:6;16:6; 18:24

As you try to dismiss the “saints” as the priesthood throughout the Greek scriptures,  and they only have access to the Temple of God, you are dismissing the scriptures as well. By saying otherwise, you are aiding the existence of the man of lawlessness that “stands where it doesn’t belong” – in the Temple of God.  (Mark 13:14; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1,2)  Scripture from the past, helps interpret scripture today.🙂 

“So you shall appoint Aaron and his sons that they may keep their priesthood, but the layman who comes near shall be put to death."  Num 3:10

2 Thess 2 “And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendour of his coming. ⁹ The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, ¹⁰ and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.”

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

We do not promote man-made schemes.

Oh my goodness.  You are so blind, Arauna.  Do you know what a man-made scheme is?  

Beth Sarim

The "generation" teaching

Every failed predicted of Armageddon and the dates surrounding all of them.

The "thousand year" doctrine

The promise that an earthly organization is blessed by God - an organization built in the world where Satan has control!

The practice of disfellowshipping based on rejection of that organization and its liars, the GB.

The promise that an earthly organization will remain standing after Armageddon

The idea that all the anointed and Jesus Christ as the second Adam, must not enjoy their inheritance of the earth, but remain in heaven ONLY. 

The blasphemy that elders not anointed are allowed to rule over God's chosen people/priests/anointed.

That last one is the most critical, a diabolical man-made scheme to eradicate a spiritual nation that has ever come to pass.  2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1-3

Religious man-made schemes are demonically inspired.  Matt 24:24,25; 1 Tim 4:1; Rev 16:13-16

 

 

[Chioke Lin]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

o become a spiritual house or temple for Jehovah. (1Pe 2:4-6)  Just as the topmost stone of a building is conspicuous, so Jesus Christ is the crowning stone of the Christian congregation of anointed ones, which is likened to a spiritual temple. 

Anointed Christians on earth are likened to a temple, Jesus Christ being its “foundation cornerstone.” (See CORNERSTONE.) it-2 pp. 1036-1037

Glad to see you would have to agree with at least one aspect of my comment. After the end of the 1000 years, we would have become God's temples and Jesus still being that cornerstone and foundation. Good needs to start from somewhere, and it does start with Jesus.

Like you mention, many bible writers also believe in the same aspect, not just the organization. The fact you submitted at point of interest that agrees with my point is another example, it's not just my belief as a commentator. 

My personal identity has no bearing on my comments. The bible does. I would appreciate if you keep that in mind.

[Arauna]

6 hours ago, Witness said:

Do you take that message to the door?   (Second Armageddon?)

I have preached this many times when I have reached this teaching  stage of  discussion regarding Jehovahs purpose and justice.... because it shows the LOGIC of Jehovah (every aspect of his actions have been well planned. ........Having the foresight to plan to test all "perfect" humans like he did Adam.   Him having the foresight to rule humankind in complete justice and remove those with an incomplete heart.   At the end of thousand years jehovah will test each perfect person, just like he did Adam....... as a perfect human being they will have the wonderful  opportunity to prove their faithfulness.

The bible itself shows that jehovah will release the demons again and an indeterminable number of people (like sand of the sea), will rebel ( like Adam did)......or in greater numbers and with similar intent  as Gog and Magog  -  to disrupt Godly rulership.... but Jehovah has proven that humans cannot rule the earth successfully - so they will go straight to second death.... by their own "perfect" choice. 

 

7 hours ago, Chioke Lin said:

The problem here, you are dealing with people that are opposed to the Org, and it's teachings. So, to them, they feel we are promoting man-made schemes. That's my point. Unless my English is so bad that it cannot be

I see your point too! But we cannot be covering  all "possible scholarly arguments" when talking to people about Jehovahs' purposes.  Jesus is a good example to us. He knew the pharisees were argumentative and likely to divert attention from his message when they put themselves amongst the people.  

Consequently, he knew their bad intent, so he only answered them when the ordinary people, who were genuinely interested, could benefit from his reply to the learned pharisees. 

I have already preached to a group of Muslims where they all keep on listening ... despite the fact that one person is saying out loud that I am a false prophet.  If they want to listen .... they will listen and go and think about it! 

We preach to those who want to listen and to those whom jehovah is drawing to Himself.  We are not better than Jesus are we? We know that very few rich and powerful individuals listened to Jesus.  They did not need him.... they wanted to destroy him. 

[Arauna]

8 hours ago, Chioke Lin said:

Too much opposition from both sides. That's the perception I'm getting.

I thought this is a discussion forum about the bible, not about the person. Perhaps, it's time to find a better forum

No, you are taking a little offense at an impersonal discussion.  We do not know you personally....so we cannot damage you personally,  we can only reply to what you say.  So far it has been nice to talk to you in a very forthright way.   If we all have to hide what we think then it stifles free talking and openness. Some cultures are more prone to save face and others are not. My culture is almost challenging...... lol.  So please accept that our intent (well my own is) is only to up build my fellows here and open up that which needs more discussion from every side. . When I see a thought that is different to mine I will clarify what I think about it.... it is only by sharing honest thoughts that our thoughts are adjusted..... when we see new perspectives.  We learn here all the time.