Some say one thing, and some say something completely different

[Srecko Sostar]

50 minutes ago, George88 said:

Your cynicism intrigues me. Could you please clarify your statement about GB's claim that "Jesus did not promise perfect spiritual food"? I would greatly appreciate it if you could provide evidence supporting this assertion. I am eager to read it myself and form an informed opinion, ensuring that there are no misunderstandings regarding the intended meaning of their words.

It seems you missed some important points in my post. I want to emphasize that ex-witnesses are part of our community. Although I may have been overlooked as a poster, I believe my words deserve recognition. Putting that aside, Jesus made an insightful comparison between those who had the chance to "repent" like a tax-collector and those who had already repented but had sinned against God. 

Here's a scenario: If an atheist were to come to your home and, in an attempt to show that person the Bible, that person forcefully takes it from you and strikes you with it, would you still regard that person as your neighbor? Would you consider calling the authorities and subsequently distancing yourself from them, even going as far as shunning them for their aggressive behavior? 

Unless that person sincerely apologizes, repents for their behavior, and asks for forgiveness, it is doubtful that they would be warmly received into your house.

Matthew 9 reveals Jesus' powerful message that anyone, including tax collectors, can find redemption through repentance. On the other hand, Matthew 18 teaches us that Christians who have strayed from their commitment to God must seek his guidance and forgiveness. In this regard, it is important to recognize that we should not judge or criticize those who faithfully adhere to God's commandments, no matter how much we may disagree with the methods described in scripture. As followers of Christ, we cannot selectively accept or reject parts of the Bible based on personal preference.

“WHO REALLY IS THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE?”

12. Since the Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible, what questions arise?

¹² The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. In fact, the Watch Tower Publications Index includes the heading “Beliefs Clarified,” which lists adjustments in our Scriptural understanding since 1870. Of course, Jesus did not tell us that his faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food. So how can we answer Jesus’ question: “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave?” (Matt. 24:45) What evidence is there that the Governing Body is filling that role? Let us consider the same three factors that directed the governing body in the first century. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2017283

 

 "Consider, too, the fact that Jehovah's organization alone, in all the earth, is directed by God's holy spirit or active force. (Zech. 4:6) Only this organization functions for Jehovah's purpose and to his praise. To it alone God's Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book. Many persons of the world are very intelligent, capable of understanding complex matters. They can read the Holy Scriptures, but they cannot understand their deep meaning. Yet God's people can comprehend such spiritual things. Why? Not because of special intelligence on their part, but as the apostle Paul declared: "For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God."" Watchtower 1973 Jul 1 p.402

 

"The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men. No man's opinion is expressed in The Watchtower. God feeds his own people, and surely God uses those who love and serve him according to his own will. Those who oppose The Watchtower are not capable of discerning the truth that God is giving to the children of his organization, and this is the very strongest proof that such opposers are not of God's organization." Watchtower 1931 Nov 1 p.327

 

[Srecko Sostar]

"Today, Jehovah guides his people by means of the Bible, his holy spirit, and the congregation. (Acts 9:31; 15:28; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17) The guidance that we receive from him is so clear that it is as if ‘our own ears hear a word behind us saying: “This is the way. Walk in it.”’ (Isa. 30:21) In effect, Jesus also conveys Jehovah’s voice to us as he directs the congregation through “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Matt. 24:45) We need to take this guidance and direction seriously, for our everlasting life depends on our obedience." Watchtower 2014 Aug 15 p.21

"God gives us the direction we need in order to look after his people. (Compare Exodus 24:12.) His Word directs us and his spirit assists us beyond our natural abilities in caring for responsibilities. (2 Cor. 4:7)" “Pay Attention to Yourselves and all the Flock” p.11

"The mysteries locked up in the book of Revelation have for long baffled sincere students of the Bible. In God's due time, those secrets had to be unlocked, but how, when, and to whom? Only God's spirit could make known the meaning as the appointed time drew near. (Revelation 1:3) Those sacred secrets would be revealed to God's zealous slaves on earth so that they would be strengthened to make known his judgments. (Compare Matthew 13:10, 11.) It is not claimed that the explanations in this publication are infallible. Like Joseph of old, we say: "Do not interpretations belong to God?" (Genesis 40:8) God had a channel for communicating Revelation in John's day, and John was the earthly part of that channel. Likewise, God has a channel for giving spiritual nourishment to his 'slaves' today. Revelation, Its Grand Climax At Hand! p.9, 15

 

The Organization operates under the confusing concept of "Provisional Infallibility." On the one hand, Watchtower information is to be accepted unquestioningly as from Jehovah; on the other hand, Watchtower admittedly contains significant mistakes. 

This is justified by the irrational concept that holy spirit directs the Governing Body, but they are not inspired. This is illogical - inspired means to be directed by holy spirit. The concepts of infallibility and inspiration are simple, yet discussing them in line with Watchtower teachings becomes complicated because by definition it is impossible to have direction of holy spirit but not be inspired. According to The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition:

 

• Infallible; "Incapable of erring" (therefore to be infallible means to be perfect)
• Inspire; "to affect, guide, or arouse by divine influence" (or in other words inspired means to be directed by holy spirit)

Presented as formula highlights the flaw in the Watchtower reasoning, the Watchtower contradicts itself when saying that God's Holy Spirit directed its doctrines, yet they are not necessarily correct.

source:https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/directed-by-holy-spirit.php

[Srecko Sostar]

22 minutes ago, George88 said:

I found your submission quite intriguing.

Matthew Henry once said: The apostles were not guided by worldly principles. They had the revelation of these things from the Spirit of God, and the saving impression of them from the same Spirit. These things they declared in plain, simple language, taught by the Holy Spirit, totally different from the affected oratory or enticing words of man's wisdom. 

The foundation of his wisdom was 1 Corinthians.

NAS  1 Corinthians 2:10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. (1 Cor. 2:10 NAS)

It appears that you doubt God's ability to bestow his Holy Spirit upon faithful individuals, as well as questioning the guidance that the apostles received from it. Allow me to clarify: Were the apostles truly infallible in their actions?

I wouldn't look back at the 1st century so much in the context of one's beliefs (mine or yours) about events in the distant past.
Our reality today is to decide/discern whether we should accept or reject or more thoroughly consider, unencumbered with the influence of WTJWorg, GB's statements about their claims to be the only ones who correctly interpret the Bible the way they do, from their inception to the present day.
With the abundance of archival material available to us, authored/written by the people at WTJWorg, it is possible to see a chronology of doctrine. The text from the publications gives us a certain insight into the personality and condition of those behind the text. Also, by relating it to events inside and outside WTJWorg, we can see more clearly why some things (doctrines, instructions, interpretations) were written in one way (as irrefutable and the pinnacle of true knowledge) and later changed, more or less modified, adapted or completely rejected. And with some doctrines, it happened that they were thrown out for a while and then reintroduced as correct after a certain period of time (the so-called flip-flop).

It is unnecessary to question whether an individual believe or does not believe in God and his ability. That doesn't solve anything. The question must be asked whether we should believe in People who claim that God is speaking contradictory things through them, and that both are true.

[Many Miles]

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

...

The Organization operates under the confusing concept of "Provisional Infallibility." On the one hand, Watchtower information is to be accepted unquestioningly as from Jehovah; on the other hand, Watchtower admittedly contains significant mistakes. 

...

I think the organization (which I grew up calling the society) operates under an unstated premise that it's okay to hold divergent views so long as you don't attempt to create schism.

Over the years of its existence the society has suffered some pretty horrendous schisms, which understandably birthed fear of schism. For example, in the late 1920s the number of persons associating with the society dropped by about 80 percent. That will leave a wound to be felt for quite awhile. Resulting fear has, in my view, led to a position that confuses uniformity with unity. The society wants every person who submits to it to be uniform in belief, including when a teaching or teachings change. Uniformity of people is not unity of people, and eventually it grinds people down. Unity of people is people who maintain a common cause despite having differences, and it raises people up. Uniformity of people is people who maintain a common cause because they have no differences. But humans always have differences. We are all unique. The uniformity created by the society is an outcome of tools of conformity. But it still remains the case that humans are unique and will always have differences. The society knows this. In the end, unity can only thrive when its comprised of people who hold common cause despite their differences.

One thing I wish our contemporary governing body would do is to express a litmus test of themselves for sake of those who they ask obedience from. The early Christian leaders offered a means by which those they asked obedience from to legitimately say, in effect, "No, I'm not obeying that", and it was okay to do so. In the opening of the letter to Galatia such a litmus test was put in writing for all to see. That was a pretty bold thing to put out there for early Christians. It let them know their obedience did not require them to accept and promote something just because they were told to do so. What was said to Galatia served the purpose of falsifiability. It was a litmus test, and it was spelled out and in writing. Among early Christians, there was unity not because everyone agreed on everything. There was unity because despite differences they might have and share they were still united in a common cause to follow Christ and share the good news of his kingdom rule sure to come.

Getting back to the point, today's governing body knows perfectly well they are fallible, but they still want JWs to unite around common cause despite that fallibility. What they do not want is anyone to openly express disagreement so that it causes a schism. That's a fine line to walk, but there it is.

[Many Miles]

14 minutes ago, George88 said:

I firmly believe that they practice this on a daily basis. ...

So what is today's governing body's version of "Whoever is declaring to you as good news something beyond what you accepted, let him be accursed"?

What is the litmus test today?

 

[Pudgy]

11 minutes ago, Many Miles said:

So what is today's governing body's version of "Whoever is declaring to you as good news something beyond what you accepted, let him be accursed"?

What is the litmus test today?

Reality checks are best done by comparing theory with reality.

Were the Jehovah’s Witnesses marched out of Nazi concentration camps to cargo ships to be sunk and drowned rescued by God, or the American and Allied forces?

The “litmus test” is actually DOING the testing.

[Pudgy]

no.

[Pudgy]

Sure you can .….

….. and should!

Paul wasn’t dragging around 15 billion dollars in Real Estate.

The GB cannot do “magic tricks”.

 

[Pudgy]

OK  OK OK …..

So it doesn’t take much to get me started.

Let’s compare the Apostle Paul to the very earliest  Governing Body ….

 

[Pudgy]

They control it.

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, George88 said:

Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that the Governing Body owns the Watchtower?

 

1 hour ago, Pudgy said:

They control it.

My amateur opinion is that things are intertwined here and they are moving in some kind of change of supremacy in opinion between the groups that are the current rulers in WTJWorg. As in any Corporation that has a business/monetary aspect and a real estate business, the survival of Organized Religion in its current form depends solely on money and business moves. How much control GB can have in this, and how much other players are unknown to most of us.

Regarding GB's theological control over religion, I think they have it to the greatest extent.

[Pudgy]

Actual Control Hierarchy :

1.) Accountants  ⬇️

2.) Lawyers  ⬇️

3.) Governing Body  ⬇️

4.) Helpers  ⬇️

5.) WTB&TS  ⬇️

6.) Branch Offices  ⬇️

7.) Elders  ⬇️

8.) Ministerial Servants  ⬇️

9. Congregants-at-Large