JW Children and baptism

[Pudgy]

…

 

[BTK59]

It appears that the only one playing games here is pudgy and his group of followers. Instead of evading discussions about your dishonest statements and diverting attention with nonsense, face the questions. The evidence indicates that a 10-year-old displays more spiritual maturity than an uneducated 76-year-old. Who granted these individuals the power to determine who possesses enough spiritual maturity to comprehend their oath before God, especially when someone who took that oath became apostate even before being dismissed for an egregious act against children?

Imagine defending someone accused of child sexual abuse while using a sock puppet to do so. It's like playing Whack-A-Mole with the truth, and the consequences are nothing short of insane.

[Pudgy]

… exactly the diversionary tactics I described in my posts … instead of just downvoting my posts … refute them!

…. give it a try  … you can use whatever Whack-A-Mole pop up screen name you want!  After two sentences everybody knows it’s YOU anyway!

[Pudgy]

And now … a little musical interlude to lighten things up … for those with TDS, WDS, and even “P”DS. IMG_9292.MOV  

 

Try not to have your brain explode.

 

[Many Miles]

On 1/1/2024 at 11:37 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Children are not fully developed in their ability to think, to reason, or to recognize and avoid danger. (1 Cor. 13:11) 

When it comes to "one of the most serious" decisions (marrying), the society says: "Christians want to wait to get married until they are mature..." (Ref Jan 15, 2001 Watchtower)

So for "one of the most serious" decisions of marrying, the advice is to wait until you are mature.

When it comes to baptism, the society calls this "the most serious decision" an individual can make. (Ref June 15, 2012 Watchtower)

[Pudgy]

3 hours ago, Many Miles said:

When it comes to "one of the most serious" decisions (marrying), the society says: "Christians want to wait to get married until they are mature..." (Ref Jan 15, 2001 Watchtower)

So for "one of the most serious" decisions of marrying, the advice is to wait until you are mature.

When it comes to baptism, the society calls this "the most serious decision" an individual can make. (Ref June 15, 2012 Watchtower)

This is the underlying principle of what everyone here knows and remembers …  and the REASON for objections to minor child baptisms …except of course Wally McNasty and his up and down voting clone sock puppets.

But then again, that is what WDS IS.

Regardless of anything else that may or may not be true, the 2001 and 2012 Watchtowers offers much  sound advice. (… entirely from memory, but it made sense at the time…)

The fact that it is CONFLICTING advice is the sticking point!

And … the issue of massive collateral damage for a premature decision made by an 8 year old, etc. is never mentioned in baptism recruiting efforts.

At what age do you think a child is mature enough to give others the legal right to destroy him or her, and their family relationships, perhaps ten years later?

There was a valid reason why Jesus was not baptized at age 12.

[BTK59]

The persistent irrational thoughts still focus on personal failure instead of understanding the true meaning of baptism. This disconnect leads to an immature approach in two different scenarios.

Scripture does not provide any evidence as to why a young person with scriptural maturity should not be baptized. On the contrary, it is clear that a young person's ability to comprehend and display maturity in their thinking and actions should be acknowledged. It is the older generation, who should know better, that disregards scripture and exposes themselves to negative influences by complaining and using illogical arguments to discredit the younger generation. This serves as evidence for the older generation to support and comply with the youth, rather than being complicit in hindering their growth.

Romans 6:1-4 NIV
Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Hence, those who are unaware of the teachings of the Bible persist in spreading an erroneous message regarding sin. It is important to note that one's child cannot undo the transgressions committed by their father.

It's possible that Jesus could have been baptized at the age of 12, but his true mission on earth did not begin until he commenced his ministry. While people may have listened to Jesus at a younger age, it was as adults that they truly became "followers" of Christ. This offers two distinct perspectives to consider.

[Pudgy]

Well… I go by life experiences. 

When my brother was 17, during the 1960’s, he wanted to Join the Marines, go to Vietnam and  “kill gooks”.

A year later he was 18, a hippie, and said “Hell No! We won’t go!”, and didn’t.

Real life experiences trump esoteric theory.

[Many Miles]

8 minutes ago, BTK59 said:

Scripture does not provide any evidence as to why a young person with scriptural maturity should not be baptized. On the contrary, it is clear that a young person's ability to comprehend and display maturity in their thinking and actions should be acknowledged.

I would agree that any mature person should not be denied baptism.

But I must ask, what is "scriptural maturity"?

[Pudgy]

Why not eliminate the middlemen and let this be a decision between each individual child, and God and Christ?

Those are the legitimate parties to the Baptism Covenant.

Nobody else. 

[BTK59]

I find it truly remarkable that the notion of "spiritual maturity" is not readily grasped as a nourishing aspect, compared to solid food, when using the illustration of "milk".

I don't understand why someone would ask such a question, especially if they were a witness. The evidence of Paul's words to Galatia, which has been a subject of debate here, escapes me in regard to this matter.

This principle is applicable to the situation where individuals who were once spiritually strong have become influenced by worldly ideals. This is illustrated in Galatians 3:1-3 and 6:8.

*** w22 August p. 2 Young Ones—Continue to Make Progress After Baptism***
It warms the hearts of all servants of Jehovah when young ones get baptized. Of course, after baptism, new disciples must continue to make spiritual progress. For the benefit of all in the congregation, this article will focus on ways that recently baptized young Christians can continue to grow toward Christian maturity.
 

Every Witness should be familiar with and grasp the concept of spiritual maturity, especially when it is referenced in the Watchtower publications and is a common theme among theology.

Some Christian sects incorporate it into their publicans and bible. 

Matthew 19:21 Amplified Bible

21 Jesus answered him, “If you wish to be perfect [that is, have the spiritual maturity that accompanies godly character with no moral or ethical deficiencies], go and sell what you have and give [the money] to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me [becoming My disciple, believing and trusting in Me and walking the same path of life that I walk].”

He Shamed Them (2 Cor. 12:11-21)

He Encouraged Them (2 Co 13:9-14) To begin with, Paul encouraged the Corinthians by his personal prayers on their behalf (2 Co 13:9). The word translated "wish" in the King James Version carries the meaning of "pray." Paul prayed for their Perfection, which does not mean absolute sinless perfection, but "spiritual maturity." The word is part of a word family in the Greek that means "to be fitted out to be equipped." As a medical term, it means "to set a broken bone, to adjust a twisted limb." It also means "to outfit a ship for a voyage" and "to equip an army for battle." In Mt 4:21, it is translated "mending nets."

No matter how you choose to present your argument about the concept of "spiritual maturity," ultimately, it all comes down to the process of spiritual growth.

[BTK59]

Does the Watchtower publication suggest that a young person should be compelled to be baptized, using demands, coercion, obligation, or even torture? If a young individual truly feels in their heart that they want to devote their lives to God, then who should intervene if they have the freedom to choose? It's an utterly ridiculous idea, if you ask me about a middle man. It is important to allow individuals to make their own decisions regarding matters of faith, especially when it comes to such personal and significant commitments as baptism. Imposing or coercing such a decision goes against the principles of free will and personal conviction.