Imperfect Church Leaders

[Srecko Sostar]

Tell me, please, how can imperfect people be perfectly frank in their statements about own mistakes?

Doesn't imperfection imply the constant possibility of error, by the own admission of these church leaders? How, then, can the alleged sincerity in statements be spared from mistakes?

Is there really such sincerity among religious leaders that does not hide a touch of falsehood?

 

[Matthew9969]

The imperfect human response then should be, 'we apologize for the mistake we made'.

Of course if one claims to be the "mouth piece of Jehovah", then makes several mistakes, they are in essence saying Jehovah made the mistake.

 

[BTK59]

Mistakes in life are often a result of personal choices, which are distinct from errors in church policies and completely different from going against God's teachings.

As always, former members provide a contradictory illustration to provoke.

[Srecko Sostar]

5 hours ago, BTK59 said:

Mistakes in life are often a result of personal choices,

Yes.

5 hours ago, BTK59 said:

which are distinct from errors in church policies and completely different from going against God's teachings.

Yes. If GB claims to be guided by HS in their decisions, then the possibility that their errors are a reflection of "imperfection" is reduced or completely nullified.

Therefore, the GB should finally decide on the basic setting; Are they led with HS or are they led with their own mental faculties and beliefs?

[BTK59]

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Yes. If GB claims to be guided by HS in their decisions, then the possibility that their errors are a reflection of "imperfection" is reduced or completely nullified.

Therefore, the GB should finally decide on the basic setting; Are they led with HS or are they led with their own mental faculties and beliefs?

Once again, this is your subjective evaluation and not a rational one at that. If the Governing Body makes a personal mistake, it would be a result of an individual decision. That decision would NOT be influenced by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, you are misunderstanding the perspectives.

How can the Watchtower be blamed if a 66-year-old man chooses to distribute child porn? So, if someone defends a predator, while advocating for child sexual abuse prevention, wouldn't that person be a hypocrite? Justifying such actions with the use of callous reasoning about child sexual abuse shifts the blame to the wrong party.

When does a church leader intervene in order to expose the 66-year-old man and the defender as hypocrites under the guidance of the Holy Spirit? At times, God employs external means to confront those who have pledged loyalty but have dishonored him through disgraceful behavior in private.

You are repeating the actions of the Pharisees who targeted Jesus, searching for flaws until they fabricated one. Their hypocrisy ultimately led to the demise of Jesus. Consequently, those who refuse to comprehend the bible and instead blame others are essentially crucifying Jesus anew. Hebrews 6:6

What was the objective of the previous thread? MATURITY!

[Srecko Sostar]

9 minutes ago, BTK59 said:

Once again, this is your subjective evaluation and not a rational one at that.

There is no fabrication here, just a perspective on what is being done at WTJWorg.

Regarding rationality. GB promised that their instructions would be irrational from the so-called human point of view. What did that say? Does this mean that JWs have a rational or irrational attitude, view towards the instructions that come from the GB?
Does this mean that GB promotes irrationality as an advantage that comes to the fore when JWs meekly accept instructions that, from a "human point of view", should be rejected and disobeyed?

18 minutes ago, BTK59 said:

If the Governing Body makes a personal mistake, it would be a result of an individual decision. That decision would NOT be influenced by the Holy Spirit.

The GB does not consist of one man but of 9 of them according to the current composition. GB is a Body that, according to their interpretations, does not make personal decisions but collective decisions. In this case, it is not about personal mistakes, but collective mistakes of GB. 

Given that we have already had the opportunity to see the discrepancy in their public teaching on JWTV several times, we really need to ask ourselves when an individual GB member is expressing a personal opinion, and when he is expressing a collective opinion.

Whatever it is, their personal and collective spiritual acrobatics as they teach the audience are often times irrational.

[BTK59]

32 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

There is no fabrication here, just a perspective on what is being done at WTJWorg.

Your assumption is still based on subjectivity.

32 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Regarding rationality. GB promised that their instructions would be irrational from the so-called human point of view. What did that say? Does this mean that JWs have a rational or irrational attitude, view towards the instructions that come from the GB?

It may appear irrational to some individuals or to certain members, but it is crucial to acknowledge that many members here have held the belief that the Governing Body (GB) has been incorrect for numerous decades. However, do these opinions hold any validity? Absolutely not. The opinions of individual members do not hold significance in the eyes of God. What truly matters to God is when something is guided by His spirit, it will be implemented regardless of anyone's perception of its correctness or incorrectness.

Therefore, the GB's misrepresented words are "so it may seem" not that it is. 

32 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The GB does not consist of one man but of 9 of them according to the current composition. GB is a Body that, according to their interpretations, does not make personal decisions but collective decisions. In this case, it is not about personal mistakes, but collective mistakes of GB. 

Are you implying that the Governing Body lives together around the clock? This is a new concept for me. When they come together, they indeed represent one body, just like the rest of the brotherhood. Spiritual Israel is a unified body with Christ, not composed of individuals. Are you suggesting that if a leader neglects their responsibilities, the entire brotherhood is deemed to have failed, including all members of the closed club? And even if any member, regardless of their number, disagrees with something, they will put aside their differences and seek clarity through prayer, regardless of the time it may take.

In this context, you are referring to the Governing Body's approach through impulse. The members of the Governing Body believe in patiently waiting for the guidance of God's Holy Spirit to illuminate their hearts.

32 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Given that we have already had the opportunity to see the discrepancy in their public teaching on JWTV several times, we really need to ask ourselves when an individual GB member is expressing a personal opinion, and when he is expressing a collective opinion.

Will it make a difference to those who do not comprehend?

32 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Whatever it is, their personal and collective spiritual acrobatics as they teach the audience are often times irrational.

Only from a foggy looking glass.

[Pudgy]

Your entire argument and chain of logic, BTK59, can be instantly and totally refuted by the real life classic example that for 80+ years the Society’s policy irrationally and unscripturally  placed heavy burdens on the Brotherhood by persecution of Brothers with beards. I was even chastised for a mustache in a “little back room” with three elders, which hurt my feelings terribly. 

There is only so long some people will tolerate small tyrannies before the start voting with their wallets and their cars to escape it.

Of those who once chose to become Jehovah’s Witnesses, according to 2016 Pewresearch.org, 66% no longer identify with Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are voting with their wallets and their feet. 

JW Core Theology (15%) produces peace, righteousness, fairness, Truth, and Freedom as an adopted Son of God. So why do 66% LEAVE?

There should be a line at the Kingdom Halls of people trying to GET IN!

That is NOT the case.

Then if you consider the PIMOs (Physically in, mentally out) who only stay to keep their families from shunning them and tearing their family relationships apart, that even further emphasizes the fallacy of your theories.

I plan to celebrate per GB Update 2023-8 “Beard Liberation Day” every December 15th, for the rest of my life, for what I personally endured for 60+ years, and hope for a theocratic future with many other needed and overdue reforms.

When having to endure petty tyranny, some do not consider it petty.

Such is the case in California now, a State I used to love and admire, having lived in San Diego, Malibu, Hollywood, and San Francisco many years ago. The thought of even visiting gives me the creeps now.

Many are leaving for good, to Texas, Florida, Nevada, North and South Carolina, etc. They are voting with their wallets and their cars!

[BTK59]

However, my question, "pudgy", why should I pay attention to the relentless complaints of excommunicated former members who have nothing constructive to offer except ignorance and distortions?

You desire to remove the intermediary, you are that intermediary.

Is it fair to blame Christ or the apostles if someone decides to stop identifying as a Christian or following Christianity because they no longer found it beneficial? Eventually, your dislike towards the organization should be justified.

[Pudgy]

 

 

I generally ignore your comments BTK59, because they do not address what is actually being discussed .. you go off on an irrelevant tangent, misconstrue the real issues, and ask rhetorical questions that are borderline absurd.

For a change, I will this one time address your post, point by point as follows:

However, my question, "pudgy", why should I pay attention to the relentless complaints of excommunicated former members who have nothing constructive to offer except ignorance and distortions?

Because Everything I post is true, based on evident facts that are or can be easily proven, and are common knowledge for anyone not immersed in an agenda driven matrix of religious fantasy. For a change, attack what I actually present instead of your hatred for the messenger.

Ignorance and distortions?

Challenge me on SPECIFIC EXAMPLES! Without real, SPECIFIC EXAMPLES, your fantasy opinions are only fantasy opinions.

You desire to remove the intermediary, you are that intermediary.

Since you did not specify what the hell you are talking about, this is not even addressable. Care to quote me or at least give an example?

Is it fair to blame Christ or the apostles if someone decides to stop identifying as a Christian or following Christianity because they no longer found it beneficial?

Since your reading comprehension skills are distorted and warped by trying to defend the indefensible, you have not seen that I have NEVER, not once, in the more than a decade of posting on this forum, accused Christ or the Apostles of ANYTHING. I have accused the Governing Body of chasing rational people away by the tens of thousands with their irrational, unscriptural policys masquerading as the will of God.

Eventually, your dislike towards the organization should be justified.

There are two ways to read the above sentence, and in the first case, I have already addressed it. As a clarifying point, I am also an American (USA) citizen, and really happy about that … but I dislike the reality that agenda driven power hungry men have so severely damaged the Republic with disregard for it’s founding document, the Constitution. 

I feel the same way when the Governing Body severely damages the Brotherhood, by disregarding the Bible, to maintain control.

Hmmmmm …. this wasn’t too bad. I may address your sad ad-hominem attacks more often.

… or not!

 

[BTK59]

I suppose I have acquired that unfortunate habit from you, Pudgy, as you frequently deviate from the topic with your irrelevant rants and incoherent comments.

Once you offer evidence to back up your expertise rather than confusion, you will likely have something valuable to add, particularly when accompanied by your friends.

Meanwhile, I see you as nothing more than a disillusioned and expelled person who seeks to lay the blame for their own mistakes solely on the Watchtower.

[Pudgy]

WOW!

SO YOU COULD NOT THINK OF A SINGLE SPECIFIC EXAMPLE.

THAT SAYS IT ALL!