Q: How much credit do PIMO Jehovah’s Witnesses owe to Zoom for freeing them from attending boring meetings at the Kingdom Hall?

[Pudgy]

…..

[TrueTomHarley]

On 2/12/2024 at 1:37 AM, JW Insider said:

But If I snitch to their parents I wouldn't get any help lifting things next week when we do this again.

Al Kapp, the cartoonist, stuck to traditional ‘follow the flag’ values. He didn’t think much of the young people protesting, and lampooned them with the group, S.W.I.N.E. (Students Wildly Indignant about Nearly Everything) 

He would appear on campus and tell them off. One of the protesting youths asked the pugnacious fellow whether he thought young people held any advantage at all over older ones. ‘Yes, they’re better at carrying luggage,’ he replied.

[TrueTomHarley]

I got into some trouble with this post on FB. Several who use Zoom a lot were indignant, thinking I was calling them luke-warm Christians or worse. One, who has always been a pal, proceeded to tell me off on no uncertain terms.

Of course, it is my own fault, as @George88 pointed out. Had I made clear from the beginning that the opening question was not mine, it would not have happened. I told this brother that 

“I wasn’t speaking at all about you or any of the situations you mention. I should have stated—and would have were I to do it again—that the Question about ‘boring meetings’ is not mine, but was taken off a social media site (Quora) that pitches out questions for anyone to answer. I decided to answer it, and so the next three paragraphs are mine, but not the question itself. It may be the question was not written by a current Witness at all, but a former one. There are some in that population that openly boast of being PIMO, with the eventual ‘goal’ of being POMO (physically out/mentally out). Many of the friends have never even heard of that terminology, but it is sort of a modern-day ‘Demas has forsaken me because he loved the present system of things.’ It is among the reason that our numbers have been stuck around 8 million for many years now, barely growing at all. I wasn’t in any way speaking of ones like you.”

upon which, he made a graceful reply and all is well again.

On the one hand, I was heartened that so many black screens chewed me out, taking umbrage that I should think them PIMO. On the other, I was disheartened that so many had never even heard of the term—not the term itself, really, but the phenomenon. Alas, it does kind of smack (in the case of those who are shepherds) of not knowing the appearance of the flock.

 

[Anna]

59 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Alas, it does kind of smack (in the case of those who are shepherds) of not knowing the appearance of the flock.

 

I think some do indeed live under a rock. Plus the org. of course would never say anything negative about our numbers* (and why should they). It is only those who are in positions where they have to know i.e. elders connected to Bethel branches. One elder and his wife told me a few years or so ago that hundreds are leaving the truth. This was before the pandemic. Now things must be even worse as the pandemic made "fading" easier. Personally I do not know anyone in our congregation who has faded like this but I do have reports from friends. Actually that is a lie, I do know of one who is POMO now. I wish I could have a heart to heart with him, but I am supposed to not know why he left, and I am not that close with his wife. I only found out from his MIL that he had been talking with apostates....

The elder and his wife I mentioned above did make a point of saying that the online presence of opposers is playing a big role in one's leaving....

Over all, our congregation is pretty solid, as far as I know. But all it takes is some disappointment in the org. or misunderstanding and then reading stuff on line ...

*I don't know how others mid week part on the annual service report went but ours talked about growth on some obscure islands and two born in young people getting baptized. Then we had 4 experiences which were more about how to take the opportunity to talk to people informally. But there were no results, at  least not yet. (But that's OK because whatever we say may stick and re surface during the GT). 

As for the actuall annual report numbers, has anyone really looked at them and compared them with last year? I haven't. Maybe JWI? 

[Anna]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

whether he thought young people held any advantage at all over older ones. ‘Yes, they’re better at carrying luggage,’ he replied.

And what about the most important thing: they know everything!

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

The elder and his wife I mentioned above did make a point of saying that the online presence of opposers is playing a big role in one's leaving....

Over all, our congregation is pretty solid, as far as I know. But all it takes is some disappointment in the org. or misunderstanding and then reading stuff on line ...

I also think this is much bigger than most people know. On a recent trip to California I visited a brother who had been involved in many of the scholarly efforts with people like Greg Stafford and many of the names that Juan Rivera mentioned some time ago. In fact, I had to double-check that this brother was not using the name "Juan Rivera" here on this forum. Years ago, a few of these names had contacts going up to HQ (Bethel), although HQ began cracking down (again) on any further scholarly groups, and finally was able to effectively get rid of them. This crackdown had also been tried in the early 1980's for obvious reasons too.

Maybe the WTS was right to crack down because, when I met with this brother in California, he listed so many of the names of all these brothers who had finally left the Witnesses, including more famous names like Rolf Furuli and Greg Stafford, and even a scholarly member of the late 1980's Writing Dept, kicked out of Writing, but possibly still a JW as far as he knew. 

I might be wrong, but I think sunlight is still the best disinfectant. People who are curious enough to go venture online "on their own" are going to hear all these things sooner or later anyway, so why not prepare them. Even when someone mentions Ray Franz' books, we can say:

"Imagine, Ray Franz already knew firsthand about all of that stuff he reports and yet he still did his best to stay within the brotherhood, the organization. Even after he resigned from the Governing Body, and was no longer allowed to be an elder, he STILL tried his best to remain a member in good standing with  his congregation in Alabama."  

Going around saying these things never happened, or that they are all lies doesn't help. In fact, it makes things worse for those who end up believing that and trying to defend the WTS against what turns out to be true. We end up looking uninformed, or haughty, naive, or worse yet, like liars ourselves.

[Pudgy]

People in California deny reality all the time. 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, Pudgy said:

People in California deny reality all the time. 

In the sequel, Dorothy follows the yellow brick road as instructed. ‘Ah crap!’ she says at movie’s end. ‘California!’

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

I might be wrong, but I think sunlight is still the best disinfectant. People who are curious enough to go venture online "on their own" are going to hear all these things sooner or later anyway, so why not prepare them. Even when someone mentions Ray Franz' books, we can say:

"Imagine, Ray Franz already knew firsthand about all of that stuff he reports and yet he still did his best to stay within the brotherhood, the organization. Even after he resigned from the Governing Body, and was no longer allowed to be an elder, he STILL tried his best to remain a member in good standing with  his congregation in Alabama."  

Going around saying these things never happened, or that they are all lies doesn't help. In fact, it makes things worse for those who end up believing that and trying to defend the WTS against what turns out to be true. We end up looking uninformed, or haughty, naive, or worse yet, like liars ourselves.

Some in the ex-JW community use the term "JW-borg, all resistance is futile".
The method and purpose of dealing with the "disobedient" in WTJWorg is that anyone who disagrees and opposes and resists should be completely rejected, and denied communication with the "healthy fabric" of the congregation.

You gave an example with Ray Franz. The latest case is with A. Morris. Both were members of GB. Over time, the same fact is shown again and again; The "apostates" spoke the truth and saw things they should have kept quiet about, but they couldn't and didn't want to keep quiet.

These people are "whistleblowers" of some kind. Ruling structures that are bothered by the uncontrolled spreading of facts about "God's Organization" can only partially succeed in keeping such information. The so-called "non-transparency", at all levels and platforms of communication that are used today in "God's organization", has been practiced for a long time. This cannot have good results in the long run, only bad consequences. WTJWorg is "condemned, predestined" to this type of functioning, because this is how it is done in every "controlled group" and "hierarchical institution".

As much as the "broad and free freedom of communication" through today's predominantly digital means has its downsides, there are just as many positive aspects that will help individuals make "informed decisions" regarding their religious affiliation and dependence on certain ideologies of any provenance.

I am glad that a large number of JW people are taking advantage of these opportunities, and I hope that they will not go to other extremes while using their "newfound freedom".

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Years ago, a few of these names had contacts going up to HQ (Bethel), although HQ began cracking down (again) on any further scholarly groups, and finally was able to effectively get rid of them. This crackdown had also been tried in the early 1980's for obvious reasons too.

I think that’s why everyone leaves me alone, more or less, because I don’t go to Bethel and tell everyone what to do.

[Matthew9969]

On 2/12/2024 at 7:07 AM, Anna said:

Maybe if our meetings were more like this the PIMOs might be tempted to attend in person? 😂

 

I attended 2 mega churches for several years, this type of music is nice to listen to but being in that concert type environment week after week gets old. Knowing what goes on behind the music also makes it out as just a show. Followed up by a regurgitated topical teaching that may use a scripture. And I found most people who go to mega churches are biblically illiterate. Even a pastor once said they were there to entertain people.

[Matthew9969]

On 2/11/2024 at 11:59 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

Q: How much credit do PIMO Jehovah’s Witnesses owe to Zoom for freeing them from attending boring meetings at the Kingdom Hall?

Probably quite a bit, though simply fading would accomplish the same goal, minus the certain element of hypocrisy. Fading works fine for those who wish to leave. As long as one doesn’t go publicly reviling, robbing banks, or killing people, one is fine.

A consistent blackened screen without any participation always suggests to me PIMO as a possibility, save for obvious cases of infirmity, distance, hardship, etc. Nor is anyone fooled in the long run. Witnesses bond so readily with their fellow believers, even from around the world, because 2/3 of what they have in common is their spirituality/love of God. Begin to indicate that 2/3 is not very important to you, and in time relationships, even friendships, will shift.

I mean, I don’t think those meetings are boring at all, but if I did, I not only wouldn’t go but I also wouldn’t use Zoom in an attempt to deceive others into thinking I was. I like to think I have some backbone.

As a residential and business internet installer/trouble-shooter for the past 16 years, I have heard the sentiments plenty of times that people are a bit paranoid about their cameras being on. Some even conspiratorial about the cameras on their computers.