The Watchtower's 20-year adjustment to the standard Neo-Babylonian chronology

[JW Insider]

2 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

Is it not the case that critics of 607 BCE make dogmatic claims that 607 BCE has been disproved by means of several lines of evidence which are claimed to prove 587 or 586 BCE?

What does it matter what critics say? We should focus on the evidence.

3 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

The simple fact is that it is the biblical-historical-theological fact of the Exile proves 607 BCE as the date for the Fall.

As you have shown. Making a dogmatic claim as you just did proves nothing. Just as you cannot prove that the fall didn't happen in 587 BCE. 

[JW Insider]

21 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

Correct, the Bible does not give a start and end date for the Exile but does give and describes such historical events which can then be dated by a valid scheme of chronology

Thanks for admitting that. If one is looking for the date for the destruction of Jerusalem you can therefore ignore the Exile. The Bible never says it started exactly in a specific year of Nebuchadnezzar, and it never says that it ended in exactly a specific year of King Cyrus. The Watchtower claims it was not 539 when he captured Babylon, nor in 538 which was the first year of Cyrus over Babylon, but in 537, and they may have good reasons for interpreting that way. Prior Watchtowers placed Cyrus accession year in 537, and thus put his first year in 536, and used this method. If Russell had used the current Watchtower's methodology of adding several months after the beginning of that first regnal year, they would have been claiming that the Exile ended in 535 BCE. But instead they used the beginning of the first regnal year which they thought at the time was 536. From 536 they counted back 70 years and got 606 as a date for the fall of Jerusalem.

But all that is unnecessary and required interpretation instead of methodology.   

What do we have is the Bible's statement that the destruction and fall of Jerusalem was in Nebuchadnezzar's 18th or 19th year. So we can ignore the undefined 70 year exile and just use the Bible's statements. 

If you want to describe a methodology, just consider the most direct and obvious way to find the 18th and/or 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar? 

[scholar JW]

 JW Insider

8 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

What does it matter what critics say? We should focus on the evidence.

Agreed, WT scholars have examined all of the evidence both secular-historical-biblical and given the biblical evidence priority thus validating 607 BCE.

10 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

As you have shown. Making a dogmatic claim as you just did proves nothing. Just as you cannot prove that the fall didn't happen in 587 BCE. 

Nonsense. The Exile it was the most important event in Jewish/Biblical history that any competent chronologist cannot ignore. One can disprove 587 BCE by proving 607 BCE and this is done by means of the Exile of 70 years as simple as that.

scholar JW

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, scholar JW said:

The Exile it was the most important event in Jewish/Biblical history that any competent chronologist cannot ignore.

It may very well have been. But if you don't have the Bible to tell you the exact beginning or ending of that event, why don't you go ahead and use what the Bible DOES say? That is, find the BCE equivalent for the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar.

(2 Kings 25:8, 9) . . .In the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, that is, in the 19th year of King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar the king of Babylon, Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard, the servant of the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem.  He burned down the house of Jehovah, the king’s house, and all the houses of Jerusalem; he also burned down the house of every prominent man. 
 

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, George88 said:

However, I must emphasize that though I have no issue with 587/6 BC for valid reasons, I cannot support its association with the destruction of Jerusalem.

That's the same thing I always say about 607 BCE. I have no issue with the date at all. In fact, I think it's a fairly good date with which to start the 70 years of Jeremiah 25. It can't be more than a couple of years off. In fact, the "Isaiah's Prophecy" book pretty much indicates that the end of the 70 years of Jeremiah 25 was in 539 when Babylon's power "crumbles." That would start them in 609. But full Persian domination as a world empire might be considered to not have started until Carchemish in 605. 607 is right in the middle, so it seems like a pretty good place to start the '70 years for Babylon' as Jeremiah calls it. 

*** ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 par. 21 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre ***
“These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) . . . since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble. 
 

1 hour ago, George88 said:

Considering the multitude of ancient tablets that recount military triumphs, it is more sensible to follow a path guided by reason and evidence, relying on historical records and scripture.

I think it's telling that no one seems to like the direct and excellent evidence for identifying the BCE date for the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar, but would rather try to mix in the Babylonian Chronicles and various tablets that recount military triumphs. 

The Bible account makes it clear that it happened in the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar.

So if you don't have a problem with it, which year(s) of Nebuchadnezzar did you think 587/6 BCE was? Which year did you think 606 BCE was?

[JW Insider]

37 minutes ago, George88 said:

Everyone, including you, continues to insist that 587 BC is a fact simply because it is generally accepted.

No. That's completely false. I'm glad you admitted that this is what you were thinking, because it's easy to correct. It's not at all because it is generally accepted. Only because 100% of the Neo-Babylonian astronomical diaries that touch upon Nebuchadnezzar's reign consistently point to 587 as Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year of reign. (19th if you include counting his accession year.) There are at least EIGHT separate references to his king years. And ALL of them indicate that 587 was his 18th year -- with no exceptions and no inconsistencies.

(Jeremiah 32:1, 2) . . .The word that came to Jeremiah from Jehovah in the 10th year of King Zed·e·kiʹah of Judah, that is, the 18th year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar. At that time the armies of the king of Babylon were besieging Jerusalem, . . .
 

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It may very well have been. But if you don't have the Bible to tell you the exact beginning or ending of that event, why don't you go ahead and use what the Bible DOES say? That is, find the BCE equivalent for the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar.

(2 Kings 25:8, 9) . . .In the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, that is, in the 19th year of King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar the king of Babylon, Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard, the servant of the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem.  He burned down the house of Jehovah, the king’s house, and all the houses of Jerusalem; he also burned down the house of every prominent man. 
 

The Bible does give the exact date for the beginning and end of the Jewish Exile which lasted for exactly 70 years. The above cited scripture along with the parallel account in 2 Chronicles 36:11-21 along with 2 Ki. 25: 8,21. WT scholars have done just that and have determined that the BCE equivalent is indeed 607 BCE for Neb's 18/ 19th year - 2 Ki.25: 8; Jer. 52:18 inc. his acc. and regnal years.

scholar JW

[JW Insider]

4 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

The Bible does give the exact date for the beginning and end of the Jewish Exile which lasted for exactly 70 years.

Earlier you agreed that it didn't.

What exact date does it give for the beginning of the Jewish exile?

What exact date does it give for the end of the Jewish exile? 

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Thanks for admitting that. If one is looking for the date for the destruction of Jerusalem you can therefore ignore the Exile. The Bible never says it started exactly in a specific year of Nebuchadnezzar, and it never says that it ended in exactly a specific year of King Cyrus. The Watchtower claims it was not 539 when he captured Babylon, nor in 538 which was the first year of Cyrus over Babylon, but in 537, and they may have good reasons for interpreting that way. Prior Watchtowers placed Cyrus accession year in 537, and thus put his first year in 536, and used this method. If Russell had used the current Watchtower's methodology of adding several months after the beginning of that first regnal year, they would have been claiming that the Exile ended in 535 BCE. But instead they used the beginning of the first regnal year which they thought at the time was 536. From 536 they counted back 70 years and got 606 as a date for the fall of Jerusalem.

In trying to determine a modern BCE date for the Fall of Jerusalem one cannot the historical and biblical fact of the Jewish Exile of 70 years duration. The Bible gives the precise dates for its beginning and end along with its description including the experience of the Exiles whilst in captivity. The Bible states that it began in the reigns of Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon and Zedekiah, King of Judah - Neb's reign, 2Ki. 36:8, Jer. 52:29; Zedekiah's reign, 2Chron 36:11, 2Ki. 24:18;25:2 thus in the BCE dating was 607 BCE for the beginning of the Exile.

Similarly, the Bible dates the precise end of the Exile by means of the first year of Cyrus - 2Chron. 36:22-23; Ezra 1:1.which has the BCE date of 537 BCE for the end of the Exile.

19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But all that is unnecessary and required interpretation instead of methodology. 

A competent scholar requires both in order to construct a valid scheme of Chronology.

19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

What do we have is the Bible's statement that the destruction and fall of Jerusalem was in Nebuchadnezzar's 18th or 19th year. So we can ignore the undefined 70 year exile and just use the Bible's statements. 

Do not forget that Neb's regnal data is synchronized with that of Zedekiah's 11th year thus ensuring a precise definition of the Jewish Exile of 70 years. Ignoring the defined 70 year Exile disproves not only the reliability of NB Chronology but any date based on that chronology which would include 586 and 587 BCE.

19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

If you want to describe a methodology, just consider the most direct and obvious way to find the 18th and/or 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar? 

The most obvious and accurate way to fix the reigns of Neb is to rely on the Bible and not the NB historical record which is falsified by the biblical account.

scholar JW

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

24 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Earlier you agreed that it didn't.

What exact date does it give for the beginning of the Jewish exile?

What exact date does it give for the end of the Jewish exile? 

Correct. What I mean to say is that the Bible does not give such dates in a modern calendar such as BCE dating.

The Bible dates the beginning of the Exile in 607 BCE which represents Zedekiah's 11th year and Neb's 18/19th year

The Bible dates the end of the Exile in 537 BCE which represents the 1st year of Cyrus.

Now it is your turn:

What is the exact date for the beginning of the Exile?

What is the exact date for the end of the Exile?

scholar JW

[JW Insider]

10 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Correct. What I mean to say is that the Bible does not give such dates in a modern calendar such as BCE dating.

 

OK. I understand that. Thanks.

And I meant something more like whether the Bible ever contains statements like this:

1. "And Jerusalem and Judea began going into Exile in the 3rd year of Jehoiakim"
2. "And I will bring this nation into exile starting in the 11th year Zedekiah."
3. You will be free from this Exile when the Persians conquer the Babylonians."
4. "And I will free you from this Exile in the first year of Cyrus"
5. "Two years and 3 months after Cyrus conquered the King of Babylon many of the exiled Jews began returning to their homeland and the Exile was declared completed." 

There is something very close to that for the end of the exile, but nothing like it for the beginning of the exile. 

So the "dates" for the start and end of the Exile become a matter of interpretation, not a matter of clear Bible declarations or statements. 

10 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Now it is your turn:

What is the exact date for the beginning of the Exile?

What is the exact date for the end of the Exile?

As I said before, we need not worry about the beginning and end of the exile in order to determine the BCE date for the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar. The 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar is the date for the fall of Jerusalem as far as the Bible tells us. Similarly, the 14th year of Nabopolassar is the primary date for the fall of Nineveh, if we were to return to the original topic of this thread. So whether the Exile began exactly at that time, or 20 years earlier or 20 years later, the real goal is to find a BCE date that fits the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar and the 14th year of Nabopolassar. 

But I would like to try to think through your question anyway. It's the one question where you have pushed me to think in a different direction in the past, and I'd like to take it more seriously this time. I'll probably move this part of the discussion to a new topic/thread, so that we'll have a more serious place to discuss it.

For now, I'll start rambling off my thoughts about it. 

I think that it's best to think that the exile began when Nebuchadnezzar first began taking exiles. So we should look for the first time the Bible puts any kind of date on events related to "exiles."

The most obvious "first" verse in that regard at first might appear to be this one:

(Jeremiah 52:28) . . .These are the people whom Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar took into exile: in the seventh year, 3,023 Jews.

I've tested about 8 different pieces of Babylonian astronomical evidence and my software programs always puts that in the year 598. The Babylonian Chronicles claim that it happened very late in that year and therefore probably included an early part of 597. So that would be 598/597 BCE.  

The next verse shows that a much smaller number of exiles were taken in Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year, which was the same year the city and the temple at Jerusalem was considered destroyed:

(Jeremiah 52:29) . . .In the 18th year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, 832 people were taken from Jerusalem.

All the astronomical evidence I have seen, and that I have tested myself, consistently places that 18th year as 587 BCE.

The next verse shows a smaller number of people taken as exiles in Nebuchadnezzar's 23rd year:

(Jeremiah 52:30) . . .In the 23rd year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard took Jews into exile, 745 people.. . .

And, of course, all the astronomical evidence places this date as 582 BCE.

But that's not the whole story, of course. The Watchtower publications show that Nebuchadnezzar was marching around Syria-Palestine, so that we know he was near the Judean nation much earlier. The Babylonian Chronicles and the Watchtower publications both agree that this was in the Accession year of Nebuchadnezzar . All the astronomical tablet evidence places that date in the year 605 BCE. The same year that Nebuchadnezzar defeated the King of Egypt (Necho) at Carchemish. The Bible dates that, too:

(Jeremiah 46:2) . . .For Egypt, concerning the army of Pharʹaoh Neʹcho the king of Egypt, who was along the Eu·phraʹtes River and was defeated at Carʹche·mish by King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon in the fourth year of Je·hoiʹa·kim son of Jo·siʹah, the king of Judah:

But do we have evidence that there were exiles taken from Judah this early in Nebuchadnezzar's regime? 

(Daniel 1:1-6) . . .In the third year of the kingship of King Je·hoiʹa·kim of Judah, King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. 2  In time Jehovah gave King Je·hoiʹa·kim of Judah into his hand, . . . Then the king ordered Ashʹpe·naz his chief court official to bring some of the Israelites, including those of royal and noble descent. . . . They were to be trained for three years, and at the end of that time they were to enter the king’s service. Now among them were some from the tribe of Judah: Daniel, Han·a·niʹah, Mishʹa·el, and Az·a·riʹah. 

So the answer is apparently Yes. During that early march through the land, just as both the Watchtower publications admit and the Babylonian Chronicles also claim, there were some exiles taken at that time, too. They were even called by the term exiles.

(Daniel 2:25) . . .Arʹi·och quickly took Daniel in before the king and said to him: “I have found a man of the exiles of Judah who can make known the interpretation to the king.”

Of course, I am quite aware that the Watchtower interpretation doesn't agree with the date mentioned in Daniel 1:1. So the Watchtower changes the meaning of "third year of Jehoiakim" to mean something else.

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

There is something very close to that for the end of the exile, but nothing like it for the beginning of the exile. 

I disagree. The biblical accounts in 2 Ki. 25: 8-17; 2 Chron. 36: 11,20 are very descriptive of the beginning of the exilic 70 years.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

So the "dates" for the start and end of the Exile become a matter of interpretation, not a matter of clear Bible declarations or statements. 

This is expected as any scheme of chronology requires an interpretation of a historical record along with a methodology.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

As I said before, we need not worry about the beginning and end of the exile in order to determine the BCE date for the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar. The 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar is the date for the fall of Jerusalem as far as the Bible tells us. Similarly, the 14th year of Nabopolassar is the primary date for the fall of Nineveh, if we were to return to the original topic of this thread. So whether the Exile began exactly at that time, or 20 years earlier or 20 years later, the real goal is to find a BCE date that fits the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar and the 14th year of Nabopolassar. 

The problem with this methodology is that you have chosen to ignore a major piece of the biblical/historical record namely 70 years which logically is the Exile proper and a period of the Jewish nation in servitude to Babylon whilst the Land of Judah lay desolate. The fixing of Neb's 19th year and that of Zedkiah's 11th year can only be determined if due consideration is given to the 70 years as these regnal years were commensurate with fixed events namely Neb's final assault on Jerusalem and its destruction, the deportation of the populace in Jerusalem and Judah, the dethronement of the Judean king etc, etc. An appeal to an external NB Chronology which has little to say in terms of history regarding these events is simply nonsense creating a false and misleading chronology.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

But I would like to try to think through your question anyway. It's the one question where you have pushed me to think in a different direction in the past, and I'd like to take it more seriously this time. I'll probably move this part of the discussion to a new topic/thread, so that we'll have a more serious place to discuss it.

You need to as most historians have done, focus on the Exile as to its history and its theological significance unless you do this then you will remain distracted by the NB Chronology with its history and the interpretation and use of astronomical tables. The priority must be and can only be the Bible of the first order anything else is secondary.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

I think that it's best to think that the exile began when Nebuchadnezzar first began taking exiles. So we should look for the first time the Bible puts any kind of date on events related to "exiles."

The most obvious "first" verse in that regard at first might appear to be this one:

(Jeremiah 52:28) . . .These are the people whom Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar took into exile: in the seventh year, 3,023 Jews.

The biblical record shows that there was a first deportation of Jews to Babylon under Nebuchadnezzer in his 7/8th year but the Exile proper did not begin then as the land had not been desolated which would be descriptive of a nation in Exile.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

But that's not the whole story, of course. The Watchtower publications show that Nebuchadnezzar was marching around Syria-Palestine, so that we know he was near the Judean nation much earlier. The Babylonian Chronicles and the Watchtower publications both agree that this was in the Accession year of Nebuchadnezzar . All the astronomical tablet evidence places that date in the year 605 BCE. The same year that Nebuchadnezzar defeated the King of Egypt (Necho) at Carchemish. The Bible dates that, too:

(Jeremiah 46:2) . . .For Egypt, concerning the army of Pharʹaoh Neʹcho the king of Egypt, who was along the Eu·phraʹtes River and was defeated at Carʹche·mish by King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon in the fourth year of Je·hoiʹa·kim son of Jo·siʹah, the king of Judah:

But do we have evidence that there were exiles taken from Judah this early in Nebuchadnezzar's regime? 

(Daniel 1:1-6) . . .In the third year of the kingship of King Je·hoiʹa·kim of Judah, King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. 2  In time Jehovah gave King Je·hoiʹa·kim of Judah into his hand, . . . Then the king ordered Ashʹpe·naz his chief court official to bring some of the Israelites, including those of royal and noble descent. . . . They were to be trained for three years, and at the end of that time they were to enter the king’s service. Now among them were some from the tribe of Judah: Daniel, Han·a·niʹah, Mishʹa·el, and Az·a·riʹah. 

So the answer is apparently Yes. During that early march through the land, just as both the Watchtower publications admit and the Babylonian Chronicles also claim, there were some exiles taken at that time, too. They were even called by the term exiles.

(Daniel 2:25) . . .Arʹi·och quickly took Daniel in before the king and said to him: “I have found a man of the exiles of Judah who can make known the interpretation to the king.”

This information only shows that there was a deportation of Jews to Babylon which for those who would be in exile in Babylon thus described as exiles but this was not the Exile proper which only occurred some ten years later in Neb's 18/19 year.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Of course, I am quite aware that the Watchtower interpretation doesn't agree with the date mentioned in Daniel 1:1. So the Watchtower changes the meaning of "third year of Jehoiakim" to mean something else.

Indeed but this interpretation is consistent with the biblical record, an accurate translation of malkut as 'kingship in Dan 1:1, Josephus and Jewish tradition.

scholar JW