ACTUAL evidence Nebuchadnezzar's 18th is 587 BCE. TEN TIMES BETTER evidence than for Cyrus in 539?

[Pudgy]

I just learned WHY it is so very important to get all those months, days and years correct from many thousands of years ago .. about men,  women and civilizations that time has ground into dust …..

[Pudgy]

In all this excitement bandying about numbers  I forgot to track who is winning the argument, and who is loosing the argument.

That IS the POINT of this whole thing ….  

….isn’t it? 

These people, nations, dynasties and even their civilization was ground to dust by Time TWO THOUSAND AND MORE YEARS AGO!

Now … if future excavations uncover and prove a working Flying Saucer or a Stargate to the Pegasus Galaxy, THAT will have my rapt and undivided attention.

Currently it’s like “Dark Matter”. 

Or more like “Doesn’t Matter”… which anyone can look out their living room window, and see is true.

 

[Pudgy]

I often wonder about that scarred, empty contoured glass Coca~Cola bottle stamped on the bottom “Atlanta ,GA - November 15 1919”, found 23 feet deep imbedded in the solidified volcanic pumice  of  Mt. Vesuvius ….. which erupted in 79 AD, burying the cities of Pompeii and Herculaneum under ash and volcanic debris.

 

 

[Pudgy]

…. jus’ messin’ with ya …..

…. but THAT would be IMPORTANT !!!!

[Pudgy]

( … the only reasonable explanation would be that a Time Traveler had gone back in time, before Mt. Vesuvius blew up.

… Perhaps as a tourist, or spectator ….)

… jus’ sayin’.

[JW Insider]

9 hours ago, Pudgy said:

I often wonder about that scarred, empty contoured glass Coca~Cola bottle

The gods must be crazy. I thought that movie was great!

The Gods Must Be Crazy (1980 film) The tribal people in a remote African desert live a happy life, but it is all torn to pieces when a Coca-Cola bottle falls from a plane. With the villagers fighting over the strange foreign object, tribal leader Xi (N!xau) decides to take the bottle back to the gods to restore peace.

I saw the Broadway play 'The Book of Mormon" and was reminded of the same movie.

[JW Insider]

On 2/26/2024 at 10:17 AM, Arauna said:

The Insight book also claims that the eclipses are NOT a good way to determine dates and goes on to demonstrate the flaws

Makes you wonder why the only definitive way they determine Cambyses 7th year, then, is through eclipses, doesn't it.

The fact that a two hundred years later, Greeks trusted the same Babylonian chronology which was based heavily on astronomy, and began attaching Babylonian chronology to their own calendar systems, is also revealing. (Archonships and Olympiads).

On 2/26/2024 at 10:17 AM, Arauna said:

Insight book quote: "The date of 539 B.C.E. for the fall of Babylon can be arrived at not only by Ptolemy’s canon but by other sources as well. The historian Diodorus, as well as Africanus and Eusebius, shows that Cyrus’ first year as king of Persia corresponded to Olympiad 55, year 1 (560/559 B.C.E.), while Cyrus’ last year is placed at Olympiad 62, year 2 (531/530 B.C.E.). Cuneiform tablets give Cyrus a rule of nine years over Babylon, which would therefore substantiate the year 539 as the date of his conquest of Babylon.—Handbook of Biblical Chronology, by Jack Finegan, 1964, pp. 112, 168-170; Babylonian Chronology, 626 B.C.–A.D. 75, p. 14; see comments above under “Babylonian Chronology,” 

Read what you quoted carefully and you will see that it is really saying that the ONLY real information that ties to BCE dates is Ptolemy, and contemporary cuneiform [business] tablets. With Ptolemy it was the eclipse and the King List (Ptolemy's "Royal" Canon). Diodorus, Africans, and Eusebius, who come onto the picture MUCH LATER, are indirectly relying on the same Babylonian records.

The later attempts to tie dates from Babylonian records back into the Olympiads had variable results. Here are some of them, that refer to the Olympiad era of dating:

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Quote

From <https://topostext.org/work/530#B549>

§ B572  52nd Olympiad; After Nebuchadnezzar, king of the Babylonians, had died, Evilmerodach received power, to whom succeeded his brother Belshazzar, in whose reign Daniel interpreted the writing that had appeared on the wall, signifying that the power of the Chaldaeans would pass to the Medes and Persians. [572 BCE]

Event Date: -572 LA

[evidence says 562 not 572]

Quote

B549  The whole period of the captivity of the Jews is reckoned as 70 years, which according to some are counted from the third year of Joachim to the 20th year of Cyrus king of the Persians.

Further, according to others, (this number of years is counted) from year 13 of Josiah king of the Judaeans, in whose reign Jeremiah began to prophesy, until the first year of the aforementioned king Cyrus. In fact the 70 years of the desolation of the temple are completed in the time of Darius the king.

From <https://topostext.org/people/179>

[That last  highlighted one seems perfectly in accord with current astronomical evidence, that Josiah died in 609 BCE and Cyrus first year was 70 years later, in 539 BCE.]

The idea was apparently that 70 years for Babylonian domination was 609 to 539 and the 70 years of desolation on the city and temple would have been about 590 to 520 -- see Zechariah 1 :12 & 7:4,

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B586  An eclipse of the sun happened, as Thales had said beforehand would happen. [586 BCE] From <https://topostext.org/work/530#B549>

Quote

§ B590  The first year of the captivity of Jerusalem.

The people of Judah are captured.

Nebuchadnezzar, king of the Chaldeans, after Jerusalem had been captured, burned down the temple, which from the start of its construction had stood for 442 years.

Indeed, Clement agrees with our opinion in the first book of the Stromateis, asserting that the Captivity of the Jews took place in the 47th Olympiad, while Vaphres was reigning in Egypt, and Phenippus in Athens; and by calculation, 70 years from the destruction of the Temple until the second year of Darius.

When Jerusalem had been captured, the remnant of the Jews fled from the Assyrians over to Vaphres, the king of Egypt. Even the Prophet Jeremiah makes mention of this Vaphres.

Of the captivity of the Hebrews and the destruction of the Temple that was in Jerusalem, 70 years. [590 BCE]

Event Date: -590 LA

Quote

§ B605  In Babylon Daniel, Ananias, Azarias, and Misael are considered important. [605 BCE]

Event Date: -605 LA

From <https://topostext.org/work/530#B549>

[This is accurately counted from the first year of Nebuchadnezzar as stated in Daniel 1:1]

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§ B608  43rd Olympiad After whom Psammuthes the second, also called Psammetichus, for 12 years.

Cyaxares the Mede overthrew the city of Nineveh. [608 BCE]

[off only by about 4 years, since Nineveh evidently fell in 612 BCE]

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§ B608  43rd Olympiad After whom Psammuthes the second, also called Psammetichus, for 12 years.

§ B645  After whom, 18th, Josiah the Just for 32 years. [645 BCE]

Event Date: -645 LA

[645 - 32 = 612?]

Quote

 

St. Jerome, Chronicon

§B590  book of the Stromateis, asserting that the Captivity of the Jews took place in the 47th Olympiad, while Vaphres was reigning [3 hits]

-590

Note that if the 55th Olympiad is 560 (which it is) then the 47th is as little as 28/29 years earlier, or 588-589 BCE. Right about the time when Nebuchadnezzar would have begun the siege ending in 587 BCE.

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It's curious, isn't it, that many of the same ones who were using the Olympiad method of dating put the destruction of the Temple around -590.

590 is only a couple of years from 587 BCE, and not so far off from the siege of the city which would have begun closer to 589 BCE. 

This must be why so many early "historians" and "chronographers" trying to place the end of the 70 years of Judea's servitude ended it closer to 520:

Quote

 

St. Jerome, Chronicon	§B523  the 70th. However the end of the captivity of the Jews, and the permission to rebuild the temple began under	-523
Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities	§11.3.1  this time Zorobabel, who had been made governor of the Jews that had been in captivity, came to Darius, from Jerusalem;	-522

 

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Josephus first went with the common-sense idea that the 70 years began with the destruction of Jerusalem and ended with the conquering of Babylon by Cyrus. But his final work after a couple more decades of quoting from sources made him change that chronology to say that there were only 50 years between those two events. That would mean one of two things; that the 70 years started with the fall of Assyria when Babylon became a world power and ended when Persia became the world power. Or it was a separate 70 years (Zechariah) that started with the destruction of the Temple and ended with the rebuilding of it in Zerubbabel's time.

Sorry for the messy formatting. Trying to work from an iPhone. My laptop is back home.

[BTK59]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Note that if the 55th Olympiad is 560 (which it is) then the 47th is as little as 29 years earlier, or 589-590 BCE. Right about the time when Nebuchadnezzar would have begun the siege ending in 587 BCE.

There are several other factors to take into consideration for that period of time. What happened during the 26th dynasty with Kings Apries and King Amasis II? Hence, the current representation of 587 BC continues to lack significance.

[JW Insider]

6 minutes ago, BTK59 said:

Hence, the current representation of 587 BC continues to lack significance.

I'm not the one saying it is significant. I'm only saying that all evidence so far consistently points to 587 BCE as the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzar. It's up to you to decide whether that fact has any significance:

(Jeremiah 32:1, 2) . . .The word that came to Jeremiah from Jehovah in the 10th year of King Zed·e·kiʹah of Judah, that is, the 18th year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar. At that time the armies of the king of Babylon were besieging Jerusalem, . . .
 

[BTK59]

23 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I'm not the one saying it is significant. I'm only saying that all evidence so far consistently points to 587 BCE as the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzar. It's up to you to decide whether that fact has any significance:

That's why it is crucial to "rethink" to meet both aspects without sacrificing value. People tend to toss out dates and numbers as if they were precious gold, when in reality they are more like copper at best.

While we understand the importance of historical knowledge, it is crucial to consider other relevant factors as well. Surprisingly, common sense and logic seem to be sidelined in the current discourse. We find ourselves trapped in a repetitive loop, discussing the same information without making any progress. It's time to shift the paradigm. Ten years of misinformation is more than sufficient.

Now is the moment to accurately position Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year in its rightful context, alongside all the pertinent details concerning the 70 years and the gentile times. People should disregard historical inaccuracies when it comes to linking scripture, and embellishing on in conceived notions about those historical events does not aid researchers in their work.

The focus should not be on whether the Watchtower's dates are accurate or not, but rather on how they are using precise language in prophecy to guide those who seek to understand God's plan for the end times. Why would you ruin that opportunity for everyone?

[JW Insider]

4 minutes ago, BTK59 said:

We find ourselves trapped in a repetitive loop, discussing the same information without making any progress. It's time to shift the paradigm. Ten years of misinformation is more than sufficient.

I really do agree with that whole-heartedly. That's why I wanted to create a topic that skipped all the usual diversions about various events and ONLY focus on the strength of the evidence for the BCE dates in the Neo-Babylonian chronology. I had hoped to avoid the usual mess we get into by trying to decide between 586 and 587, or exactly when the 70 years started or ended, or exactly how long it took Cyrus to make the decree in his first year. 

We can always have other discussions that get into those things. But then when someone comes on to talk about some of those other topics, I always give in. 

Perhaps you wanted to shift the paradigm in another way. If so, I'm all ears. (And not enough in between.) 

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I'm not the one saying it is significant. I'm only saying that all evidence so far consistently points to 587 BCE as the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzar. It's up to you to decide whether that fact has any significance:

Utter nonsense! The only significance of Neb's 18/19th year pertains only to the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE which event is only described in the Bible as the basis for prophecy and not in NB History or Chronology.

scholar JW