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10 hours ago, George88 said:

However, they persistently promote their misguided beliefs and impose them on visitors. Unfortunately, that is what you defend as one of Tom's and JWI's accomplices.

Expel the Immoral Brother
1 Corinthians 5:13…12What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”

It is people like you who have become the "wicked one," not me. I am simply here to expose all of you as frauds and wicked individuals, because that is what you are – fraudsters using the Watchtower as a cover.

So, go ahead TOM and JWI, instant message yourselves in secret to see who gets to pull the trigger, you're not fooling anyone.

Mere question begging assertions. Show me where those participants you keep mentioning have promoted and imposed beliefs on visitors? 

After you do that, show me who has appointed you to be judge, jury and executioner of the forum? You can’t even tell me your name, and I would think because you yourself would get expelled from the Congregation for your behavior and statements.

 

4 hours ago, George88 said:

But, If you're looking for a starting point Juan Rivera, why not inquire about JWI's authority to oppose the Watchtower's stance on the simple matter of Jesus' crucifixion? JWI and another controversial figure, Joyce, who has changed her name multiple times to a title, have asserted that Jesus most likely died on a TAU CROSS. What authority does JWI have to challenge the Watchtower's position on the Greek version of Stauros?

I'm sure Tom the hypocrite will remember that one.

If he doesn't believe in the Crux Simplex, he should refrain from publicly arguing about it. After all, he wasn't there, and neither was anyone else to make absolute claims. However, it is worth noting that the Greek translation does indeed refer to an upright stake used for torture.

To support JWI's stance and challenge the Watchtower's position, one must demonstrate the historical evidence of the Romans not employing different methods of crucifixion. By doing so, it becomes possible to showcase the inconsistencies in the Watchtower's viewpoint.

 I’ve read the Cross/Stake threats. Show me where JWI or Tom  have made “absolute claims” about this topic? 

Are JWs allowed to raise questions? Are they allowed to have opinions and personal theories?  Are they allowed to suggest and propose alternatives? Are they allowed to engage and pursue prudent inquiries? Are they allowed to offer conclusions as tentative hypothesis, that will ultimately  will be judged by the Governing Body?

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Yes. I wish he would grow up. There is nothing wrong with upvotes. They show that other people think you’re hot stuff.

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19 hours ago, George88 said:

It's amusing how only unintelligible Pudgy puppets would hold such a belief, or would it be Tom's haha!

Tom has shared that he took down his book, Tom vs Apostates, due to spelling errors. It's possible that he reflected on his own situation and considered how he could argue against apostasy when he may be an example of it himself. That would be more logical and a better reason.

 Read this @George88 

On 11/21/2023 at 8:30 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

Sigh . . . There was a certain uproar about the book, so I took it back, pending rewrite. Parts of it truly could stand rewriting. Trouble is, in taking it back, I threw out the baby with the bathwater. What doesn’t need rewrite I kind of like. Moreover, last night I received a request for the book over social media—someone saying a friend was being influenced by apostate reasonings regarding the earthly organization (the point of dissension is nearly always the divine/human interface) and he had searched for that book only to find it unavailable. Rats. Still, most of what might benefit is still available as individual blog posts; it’s just a bit harder to track down and organize.

 

14 hours ago, George88 said:

When you are ready to engage in an intelligent discussion, I will be here to participate. In the meantime, all you seem to be doing is posting meaningless content. JWI, Anna, and Tom have always been eager to correct my "grammar" mistakes, just like the one you made with "threats" instead of "threads."

I bring it up because it highlights the pettiness and low behavior of those friends of yours since they don't seem eager to correct your grammar mistakes. 

Here is a one-sided situation in which hypocrites attack someone telling the truth, and they use every lowlife scheme "to accomplish their goal."

When you are ready to engage with truth and be forthcoming as a JW should be, and not hide behind a Moniker claiming to have authority,  I will be here to participate. So far you have just been regurgitating nonsense that I don’t believe either. In the meantime I recommend to take some time off to learn and study these issues more carefully. I suggest a year or so. No one presently a JW should take your stance, or presume to teach.

14 hours ago, George88 said:

I bring it up because it highlights the pettiness and low behavior of those friends of yours since they don't seem eager to correct your grammar mistakes. 

Here is a one-sided situation in which hypocrites attack someone telling the truth, and they use every lowlife scheme "to accomplish their goal."

Save me your childish behavior. 

14 hours ago, George88 said:

Obtuse questions belong in the minds of individuals.

Let's determine that. Give me a few examples from this forum? Vague accusations are not sufficient. 

14 hours ago, George88 said:

Do you truly think that the apostles were occupied with idle gossip, revealing their mundane thoughts to other Christians?

We have plenty of evidence they were occupied wrestling with everything having to do with the human and Christian experience. So yes, they were definitely sharing their mundane thoughts. 

14 hours ago, George88 said:

On what planet do you live that Christianity does not make sense to you?

I live in this planet. What are you asking? What nonsense are you spouting?

14 hours ago, George88 said:

Why are you a witness when you either do not comprehend scripture or refuse to?

Comprehend what exactly? You are being to too vague and ambiguous.

14 hours ago, George88 said:

Speak as a person of the world, hold firm to your beliefs, embrace a worldly perspective, and leave the influence of the Watchtower and God out of your thoughts. It's clear that being a genuine Christian is not in your heart.

Who made you ruler and judge over us? You are judging people's hearts now?

14 hours ago, George88 said:

James 1:26 New International Version
26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.

Right back at you. I doubt your overseers will approve the nonsense you've been sharing here. 

14 hours ago, George88 said:

Insulting the Watchtower or God is not one of them in an open forum. Criticizing the GB arrangement and Elders because some here have failed at it, is not "good" communication. Those personal opinions don't matter, and they belong in the mind that is thinking it not in an open forum.

When I have I insulted the Watchtower. When has Tom or JWI? Who has criticized the GB/elder arrangement because some have failed at it? 

Human opinion remains human opinion, whether it is private or public, held by one person or held by a group of persons. I doubt any witness here is not aiming to find objective divine revelation/interpretations.

14 hours ago, George88 said:

Exposing dissenters or disgruntled individuals that pretend to be JWs, then James 1 wouldn't apply when evil is being exposed. Which aspect of that scenario disappoints you? You need to refute scripture when it's being properly applied. While individuals like JWI and TOM may stubbornly differ from accepting, what reason do you have for doing the same?

Paul said, "Expel the evil person from among you." 1 Corinthians 5:13. This is what it means to expose wrongdoers, and that's what some of you are, wrongdoers of your faith, especially if you people are baptized. What a disgrace you are bringing reproach to God's name.

Again, who appointed you Christian vigilante? Which JW  overseer approves of your conduct and speech here? Who made you judge, jury and executioner? Quit twisting Scripture.

14 hours ago, George88 said:

Like them, it doesn't matter how many times my colleagues and I get banned. Those individuals who feel the need to defend people like you will always fail. Nevertheless, someone will inevitably step forward, embracing the mantle of righteousness, and persistently exposing the wrongdoers here until they either reform their ways or cease labeling this website as JW friendly or JW driven. Instead, they will realize that it is just like any other apostate website - insignificant in the eyes of God.

Therefore, if you are unable to understand the ancient language, like some of us, I suggest that you begin to learn the definitions of the words in scripture.

Friberg, Analytical Greek Lexicon

[Fri] ἐξαίρω 1aor. ἐξῆρα; exclude, expel, drive out (1C 5.13)
ἐξάρατε VMAA--2P ἐξαίρω 

All I know is that you have usurped authority and presumed to teach in Christ name, in the name of Jehovah's witnesses, under a mask, under Moniker @George88  but without their authorization.

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9 hours ago, George88 said:

 

It is quite remarkable how either Tom, JWI, or James were naive enough to mention the name "boyle" while using the newly created alias Miracle Pete. This clearly demonstrates their limited intellect, as it is impossible for MP to have any knowledge of a previous alias

Not that impossible if you been able to read words  for the last couple of years. Nice of you to acknowledge at least one of your ‘ previous aliases’ though 

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1 hour ago, George88 said:

Tom, it's time to move on and stop using fake accounts to try to get me banned. We both know that you have the ability to do that. So, let go of the excuses that you and JWI, together with James, have never actually had anyone banned here. It's clear that it's your alter egos that are causing all the trouble. Be responsible for your actions and face the consequences.

What do you think happened to JWI and James? I banned them. I’m beginning to come around to your point of view. That’s how keen your powers of persuasion are.

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14 hours ago, George88 said:

Your use of rhetoric as a child is misguided. This unfounded obsession with labels is baseless and uninformed. When you are prepared to engage in mature communication, perhaps I will consider reciprocating, perhaps.

I treat others the way they treat me. If you initiate insults, I will respond accordingly.

40 minutes ago, George88 said:

For more than a decade, this ongoing situation has yielded no results despite all the bans. However, we persist and thanks to God, we find a way to remain here and ensure our voices are heard, even when attempts are made to silence us.

So, who do you think God is favoring more? Think about it!

@George88 Attempting to take up the mission of vigilante, or rebuker of other brothers or JWs by claiming to advance doctrinal orthodoxy, under a moniker, a false identity, without any authority or any appointment from the Congregation, you are indeed fighting against the Congregation and Jehovah, in the name of truth. It seems clear that your behavior needs to be reigned in by some kind of Congregation discipline, under threat of disfellowshipping if necessary.

As Christians, we know both that Satan wants to get us to think more highly of ourselves than we ought. Pride is the sin by which he fell. We also know that he is an angel of light, that is, he makes evil seem good. That’s how he deceives men, and that’s how he tempts. So how can he get @George88to rebel against Jehovah, while making him think that he is serving him? He does this through pride portrayed as zeal for Jehovah and Christ and the Good News. He works like this:

“Look at those Witnesses in this forum, JWI, Tom, Juan.  Don’t you love Christ, and don’t you love the Good News? If you love Jehovah, then you need to defend the truth, and lead these lost souls back to the truth of the Good News. That’s not the virtue of faith, but the vice of pride coated in the veneer of love for Jehovah and the Good News. You are taking authority to yourself, rather than submitting to the Congregation. This is the way Satan causes divisions, through a pride in which a person takes to himself an ecclesial authority not given to him by the Congregation.

 

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31 minutes ago, George88 said:

Juan Rivera, your words are merely empty rhetoric. All I perceive is the sinister influence of the devil on you. I will continue to act according to my beliefs, and I trust that you will do the same for the members of this Satanic open/closed forums. Let's refrain from emotional reactions. 

Do not forget, you are not my brother to me, therefore your thoughts and deceitful motives are of no concern to me. 

Continue to act according to your beliefs without any accountability. Continue to operate as the Vigilante pretending to have Jehovah's and Jehovah's Witnesses backing. Keep hiding behind a moniker. The difference is that I'm willing to put my name on the line and be accountable to my overseers if I make a false step. "The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much." You have excluded yourself by not being forthright, while trying to correct other Jehovah's Witnesses. It's embarrassing.

26 minutes ago, George88 said:

What Satan desires is not individuals who speak the truth and defend their beliefs, but rather weak-minded individuals who oppose everything that is sacred for their own selfish agenda. Juan Rivera, you truly epitomize that category, and the more you vocalize your complaints like a young child, the more apparent it becomes.

Pretending to represent Jehovah's Witnesses is not a game. It is a sacred task. Jehovah doesn't use Monikers or fake Avatars or faceless disembodied usernames to correct other Witnesses. Stop pretending your a messenger of light.

 

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15 hours ago, Juan Rivera said:

Pretending to represent Jehovah's Witnesses is not a game. It is a sacred task. Jehovah doesn't use Monikers or fake Avatars or faceless disembodied usernames to correct other Witnesses. Stop pretending your a messenger of light.

I would 100% embrace my theory that he is himself a disfellowshipped person exacting revenge but for the strong possibility of mental illness. 

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18 hours ago, George88 said:

Tom, I believe that the source of mental illness lies within individuals like you. Your demonstration of a troubled mind serves as a valuable lesson. You make your puppet fight your battles like a coward, and yet that fool expects me to believe that you are the superior person.

It appears that Juan Rivera has misrepresented the substance, either due to a lack of understanding of the Bible or a refusal to comprehend it. This seems to be a portrayal of excuses rather than a genuine effort to understand.

They simply want to apply 1 Corinthians 5:11 (Throw the evil person out) to those who defend the truth by reverse psychology rather than acknowledging their own deceptive ways, by justifying their own disgraceful rhetoric by conveniently applying only that out of scripture that makes them look good or so they think about christian love when they misinterpret the rest of Scripture or conveniently ignore other teachings. Yet, that is what is inscribed in 1 Peter 2:1 without them believing it doesn't apply to those deceitful individuals here.

Their only concern is their ideology being challenged. By justifying their act of slandering the Watchtower, they believe they have a valid reason to do so, even if it contradicts scripture. 

Now there is talk about mental illness. Some individuals here clearly demonstrate a corrupt mindset, which can be attributed to mental illness. It's unfortunate that genuine witnesses are here to provide spiritual nourishment on the same forum, only to have their efforts undermined by the sinful behavior of other so-called witnesses. However, those witnesses inside the closed club consider it permissible as long as they have the opportunity to express their complaints and personal issues openly, as it is stated in the man-made constitution rather than the divine one. They want to label "Jehovah's Witnesses" using the world's standards. Everyone has the right to express their opinions if they belong to this world. If you are a member of Christ Church, then embracing blasphemy is not a path that a true Christian should follow.

The term "slander" becomes one-sided, benefiting only the discontent (malcontent) and not true Christians. It appears to me that there is a missing word and equation, which these individuals want to empower themselves with. They want to vigorously apply this word not only in their lives but also uphold it as a Christian value. 

That mindset will not just incur God's wrath, but also face his judgment.

Friberg, Analytical Greek Lexicon

[Fri] λοίδορος, ου, ὁ as one who intentionally abuses another with speech reviler, slanderer, abusive person
λοίδορος N-NM-S λοίδορος 

A. A Case for Moral Discipline (5:1–13)
The details of the sexual relationship which Paul regards as not merely immoral but particularly outrageous are considered in the exegesis below. Recent writers have treated the issue in a number of different ways, but interest has shifted from a multiplicity of research articles about excommunication and “the destruction of the σάρξ” (5:5) to reasons for the complacency, smugness, or arrogance (πεφυσιωμένοι ἐστε, 5:2) of the community (cf. also καύχημα, boasting, glorying, 5:6). Paul condemns this, hardly less than the immorality itself. Hypotheses abound. Dale Martin relates the matter to “invasive” notions of the impurity of the body corporate, with reference to theories of medicine and disease in the ancient world (see bibliography and below). John K. Chow and Andrew Clarke argue that the issue turns on the community’s sense of obligations to a wealthy patron whom they felt that they should not antagonize, and whose immoral relationship may perhaps have diverted wealth from the wider family of his parents to himself, of which members of the church may have become indirect beneficiaries thereby. Witherington perceives the issues as turning on a dialectic of Spirit and order, in which the purity of the group must be maintained within relative limits, where the man in question had gone “beyond all bounds.” There is force in all of these proposals, including my earlier argument that a sense of “freedom from the law” played a part, if not the whole part. The issue of community boundaries and of the dialectic between a “mixed” church and church discipline as a condition for the corporate identity of the church as Christ’s body remains as relevant today as ever it was, as can also be perceived in the history of interpretation. How do they retain a corporate identity as God’s holy temple (3:16) and Christ’s body (12:27) without manifesting an exclusiveness not characteristic of Christ’s own identity?

James 4:11 establishes clear guidelines against slander. However, it is disheartening to witness individuals in this community engaging in slanderous behavior while opposing the Elder arrangement. It is essential for us to reflect upon the gravity of our words and recognize the harm that can arise from slandering others. Likewise, it is equally concerning to see individuals here expressing their grievances towards the Watchtower Governing Body in a manner that can only be described as slanderous. Let us strive for more constructive dialogue and respectful discussions, acknowledging that slander has no place among us. 

However, Juan Rivera is determined to challenge this. He insists on exercising his freedom of speech to criticize the Elders and the Governing Body as he pleases. He boldly questions the legitimacy of their authority, oblivious to the fact that he himself holds no authority to question any aspect of the Watchtower organization, as an ordinary individual.

However, they firmly believe that they alone possess the ultimate truth, constantly reassuring themselves of this. Brother Morris's recent resignation from the Governing Body has triggered countless discussions. The level of criticism directed towards the Governing Body has reached an all-time high, with numerous scandalous allegations being hurled at them. Ironically, despite their claims of upholding biblical principles, they conveniently disregard the teachings found in 1 Corinthians and James. They assert their right to "free speech" and defend their ability to express any thoughts they please, even if it contradicts clear biblical guidelines.
These people are convincing me that some individuals may have mental health issues instead of the entire world being wrong for not following God's laws. 

This implies that these witnesses are indistinguishable from the rest of the world solely because they possess the secular privilege of free speech. However, it is those who faithfully follow God's will through obedience that should truly be acknowledged as genuine brothers. In accordance with Mark 3:35.

In the meantime, as this attitude is being projected by so-called witnesses, 1 Corinthians 6:1 should be applicable with one exception: those who start with insults don't need a gentle hand.

The evidence has become even clearer with Tom's recent insult he personally initiated. It is imperative that the text in the book of Matthew be taken seriously.

NIV  Matthew 9:12 On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. (Matt. 9:12 NIV)

Hence, some members of the closed club should seriously consider undergoing a psychological assessment to prevent potential harm to themselves and others. This is especially crucial if they persist in their denial, rationalizations, and behaviors that contradict Christian ethics.

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On 5/31/2024 at 6:03 PM, George88 said:

Juan Rivera, Tom, JWI, and anyone else who has led people astray in this place should be the ones worried about their standing before God, not me.

Everyone should be worried about their own standing before God, including you. Everyone will stand before God and give an account of those whom we have aided in truth or misled. 

On 5/31/2024 at 6:03 PM, George88 said:

As a true witness, I work tirelessly to expose hypocrites like you. Your attempts to pretend to be a JW while not truly embodying its principles are irresponsible, and I am dedicated to revealing these falsehoods.

A true witness, does not hide behind a mask/moniker pretending to have authority from the Congregation. A hypocrite will do that. A vigilante will do that. A false witness will proudly appoint and take authority to himself under the veneer of love for God. 

On 5/31/2024 at 6:03 PM, George88 said:

Thank you, but I do not require your permission to reveal the deplorable behavior of some individuals in both the public forum and exclusive club. It is puzzling why you strive to convince yourself of your devoutness while harboring the presence of Satan in your heart.

Has JWinsider, Thinking, and Comfortmypeople finally revealed their true identity to you? Have you been persistently pursuing their true identities, or are you just targeting me to get brownie points from them, as a one-sided hypocrite? I must confess, I notice a difference in how you approach them compared to the way you incessantly pursue me with your meaningless posts.

You don't need my permission, but you sure need the authorization from the Congregation you claim to represent. Otherwise you are a cheat and a liar. Which is way worse than what you are trying to correct. I don't need to convince myself of my devoutness, we have overseers in the Congregation for that, not online vigilantes (Galatians 2;2; 6:1)

On 5/31/2024 at 6:03 PM, George88 said:

Has JWinsider, Thinking, and Comfortmypeople finally revealed their true identity to you? Have you been persistently pursuing their true identities, or are you just targeting me to get brownie points from them, as a one-sided hypocrite? I must confess, I notice a difference in how you approach them compared to the way you incessantly pursue me with your meaningless posts.

Anyone that attempts to take up the mission of vigilante, or rebuker of other brothers or JWs by claiming to advance doctrinal orthodoxy, under a moniker, a false identity, without any authority or any appointment from the Congregation, I will ask for their credentials and identity. Otherwise that individual is indeed fighting against the Congregation and Jehovah, in the name of truth. and I will ask who appointed them ruler and judge over us?

 

On 5/31/2024 at 11:33 PM, George88 said:

You have chosen very poor examples. None of the individuals on the list can be considered as honest and exemplary models of true Christians. They are able to love themselves more, while pretending to love God, as they engage in deceit, misuse Watchtower literature, misrepresent the Bible, and mock the true essence of Christianity as it was in Jesus' time.

The group's resemblance lies in the hypocrisy they exhibit, just like the Pharisees who falsely believed they were carrying out God's will.

No, thank you. I do not wish to be part of a group that distances themselves from God's judgment by destroying their credibility as Christians. Such fellowship is not a blessing, but rather a disgrace. You can keep it, along with all its supposed rights to a poor Christian life and ethics, as none of it aligns with the positive teachings of scripture.

Where is the evidence that we love ourselves more and have engaged in deceit, or misused the JW literature?  Where is the evidence that we are mocking the true essence of Christianity?

We all have overseers that we submit to and obey and who keep a watch over our souls. Why are you trying to usurp their role , their authority and presume to teach in Christ name, without any authorization. Why are you usurping the arrangement of God.

On 6/1/2024 at 2:21 PM, George88 said:

While I understand the concern, it is my belief that individuals such as Tom, JWI, Juan, and others in the closed club should be disfellowshipped based on biblical principles, rather than simply as a matter of principle. The Watchtower organization deserves committed and genuine witnesses of faith, as opposed to individuals who feign their Christianity and tarnish the community.

The only puppet hiding behind a moniker is not Tom, or me, but you @George88. I leave the judgment of disfellowshipping to the Congregation, not a vigilante.

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3 hours ago, George88 said:

However, Tom, it is high time that you abandon your foolishness and put an end to it. I used to hold you in high regard until

until I corrected you on the most insignificant of points, after which a rabid porcupine from K-Mart could not bristle the way you did. It has been Grudge City ever since.

I notice that it happens with everyone.

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12 hours ago, George88 said:

You are absolutely right. When someone insults me, I will not hesitate to return that insult in kind.

Try to find a more Christian way to conduct yourself.

“Do not pay back injury for injury or insult for insult.” 1 Peter 3:9

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17 hours ago, George88 said:

It's commendable that you recognize the insignificance of your nonsense in the eyes of God. Misrepresenting yourself as one of God's servants and acting as a puppet for Tom could result in severe judgment.

I want to commend you, but so far as I know, you have not conceded a single point, even the times you've been clearly mistaken.

17 hours ago, George88 said:

It's quite amusing you brought this up. Now that you have criticized JWI, Anna, Thinking, comfortmypeople, and labeled them as hypocrites, I wonder what Aruana will have to say when this criticism also applies to her. It seems there's an "obtuse" individual born every day. 

Your current mindset is not conducive to building meaningful relationships within the closed club. Personally, I do not view many members of the closed club as witnesses, and thus, I do not consider them as my brothers or sisters. Instead, I see them as anonymous hypocrites.

I'm addressing you and calling you a hypocrite because you are the only vigilante here claiming to have authority from the Congregation and Jehovah, without any proof. No one here is making those baseless claims.

17 hours ago, George88 said:

In an anonymous forum, anyone can use their real names, but to me, it holds no significance. Therefore, I don't pay attention to the different personas that Tom takes on. You're just another individual who complains about my screen name, yet you fail to criticize names like "many mile" or "miracle pete", like a childish fool.

It's quite amusing that you don't hound those "others" with anonymous monikers, since you probably know they are associated with Tom, and therefore are aware of their origins. However, Tom, it is high time that you abandon your foolishness and put an end to it. I used to hold you in high regard until you chose to turn a blind eye and support your renegade companion JWI, as well as your expelled friend James (Pudgy). Your current conduct and demeanor have become truly repugnant.

Whether it holds significance to you is not the issue. But if you are going approach other witnesses making claims about your authority and appointment, your name and identity are going to matter. Anonymous handles ,and aliases are not going to cut it. 

17 hours ago, George88 said:

Have you been keeping up with the nonsense that has been happening in the past or is still happening in the closed club? Your defense of foolish individuals only brings personal consequences. You don't need human intervention when those you defend have criticized the Elder arrangement, the Governing Body, and the content of the Watchtower articles. So, where is their authority? It's time to grow up!

Becoming Tom or James Junior makes no difference because you are spreading the same false narratives as they do.

I am not defending foolishness. But human opinion remains human opinion. I've criticized "Many Miles" about his opinions about the GB, Tom has criticized him as well. If you haven't noticed, Miles has not been participating here since our last exchange. I've criticized "James". "Tom" and Arauna have criticized "me".  I don't agree/nor fully understand "JWI"'s paradigm and I've expressed that to him, as well as Tom. 

17 hours ago, George88 said:

What motivates you to misuse your autonomy to challenge established authority? I am granted certain privileges by God. Are you also given the privilege to become an apostate, a negative influence, and to deviate from God's word with your deceit, complaints, and nonconformity? What is your true intention, other than following the advice of Satan?

I don't challenge established authority. But so far, your authority has not been established. 

Here's the rules for this forum:

Members should keep in mind that an opinion on something of a doctrinal nature that is not in line with current understanding does not mean that the current understanding is wrong. Therefore it’s not necessary to take offense, or start defending current understanding just for the sake of it, without actually presenting a reasonable counter argument.   Members must realize that one of the objectives of this club is that members should feel comfortable expressing their ideas and discussing things which can be viewed as controversial, as long as these do not become dogmatic and/or are aggressively promoted. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and it works both ways. Biblical principles to keep in mind: (2 Timothy 2:23-25) Further, reject foolish and ignorant debates, knowing that they produce fights. For a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, showing restraint when wronged,  instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed.. (Titus 3:9, 10)  But have nothing to do with foolish arguments and genealogies and disputes and fights over the Law, for they are unprofitable and futile. As for a man who promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition (1 Peter 3:15) . . .always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect. (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Make sure of all things, hold fast to what is fine. (1 John 4:1) Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement, but test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. Not allowed: obscene, vulgar, and/or hateful talk, racist remarks, ad hominem attacks (against anyone, which includes the GB), trolling, and links to apostate websites."

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