Watchtower's 1914 Chronology - Ad Nauseum

[BTK59]

15 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Goodness. Would you have tried to stone Jesus? He asked us to love even our enemies!

This is a weak argument, especially considering that Apostle Paul was explicit about God's intentions when he declared "have nothing to do with them." Therefore, instead of using your own emotions and misbehavior to rationalize going against God, it is better to refrain from dishonoring Him and tarnishing the reputation of the Watchtower.

Loving your enemy does not imply forming an association with them, as you are suggesting. If you had taken the time to pay attention to my previous comment about expressing concern for his well-being, you would realize that it demonstrates the concept of loving your enemy without any personal ties. I am not in favor of the decisions he made that caused him to encounter legal issues.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, BTK59 said:

Loving your enemy does not imply forming an association with them, as you are suggesting.

Jesus associated with tax collectors, publicly known sinners, prostitutes, etc. Doesn't mean he condoned their conduct and actions. He was known for mercy and looking for repentance. 

It's true that there should not be close association which can lead to condoning and even sharing in the sins of someone. Some of us will show more judgment and some will show more mercy. Not everyone will find the same middle-ground. 

I thought these thoughts from a recent Watchtower were good:

*** w21 October pp. 11-12 pars. 14-16 We Serve the God Who Is “Rich in Mercy” ***
Sometime later, Paul learned that real changes had taken place. The sinner was truly repentant! Although the man had brought shame on the congregation, Paul told the elders that he did not want “to be too harsh.” He directed them: “Kindly forgive and comfort him.” Note Paul’s reason: “So that he may not be overwhelmed by excessive sadness.” Paul felt pity for the repentant man. The apostle did not want to see the man so overwhelmed, so crushed, by what he did that he would give up on seeking forgiveness.—Read 2 Corinthians 2:5-8, 11.
¹⁵ In imitation of Jehovah, the elders love to show mercy. They show firmness when necessary but mercy when possible if there is a real basis for it. Otherwise, it is not mercy but permissiveness. Are elders the only ones, though, who need to show mercy?
WHAT CAN HELP ALL OF US TO SHOW MERCY?
¹⁶ All Christians seek to imitate Jehovah’s mercy. Why? One reason is that Jehovah will not listen to those who fail to show mercy to others. (Read Proverbs 21:13.) None of us would want Jehovah to refuse to listen to our prayers, so we carefully avoid developing a hard-hearted spirit. Rather than turn a deaf ear to a fellow Christian in pain, we must always be ready to listen to “the cry of the lowly one.” Similarly, we take to heart this inspired counsel: “The one who does not practice mercy will have his judgment without mercy.” (Jas. 2:13) If we humbly remember how much we need mercy, we are more likely to show mercy. We especially want to show mercy when a repentant wrongdoer returns to the congregation.

If a man continues in conduct that he is not sorry about, and he calls himself a brother, then close association could be interpreted (or misinterpreted) as the congregation's acceptance of wicked conduct. I agree that we have to be careful about such things. A person who recognizes that they have no right to call themselves a brother and who appears sorry about the wrong will leave us in a position to make our own decision about what level of association might be useful for them and that shows a proper level of mercy. There are some things that will boil down to a matter of conscience, in my opinion. But no one else needs to hold my same opinion:

 (1 Timothy 1:5) . . .Really, the objective of this instruction is love out of a clean heart and out of a good conscience and out of faith without hypocrisy.
 

[BTK59]

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Jesus associated with tax collectors, publicly known sinners, prostitutes, etc. Doesn't mean he condoned their conduct and actions. He was known for mercy and looking for repentance. 

This is another flawed example. Where did you acquire your knowledge of scripture? None of what you stated aligns with the apostle Paul's understanding. Instead, Jesus exemplified the difference between sin and repentance, as none of those individuals actually sinned against Jesus.

You not only embarrass yourself with your lack of historical knowledge, but you also twist scripture to rationalize your emotions towards someone who has been disfellowshipped and has shown no signs of repentance. Prepare to give an account for your actions on judgment day.

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

If a man continues in conduct that he is not sorry about, and he calls himself a brother, then close association could be interpreted (or misinterpreted) as the congregation's acceptance of wicked conduct. I agree that we have to be careful about such things.

However, you consistently contradict yourself with a straightforward fact - the expression of remorse. James/Pudgy's secular actions are being questioned in a legal setting, and his behavior in this instance displayed no indications of remorse. He attacked, accused, and slandered the Watchtower, just as you often do. Therefore, your moral principles do not align with the teachings of religious texts; instead, they conform to your imperfect human nature.

People should devote themselves to Christ and God, rather than a misguided and immoral individual.

In this instance, Paul was actually referring to the incorrigible brother within the community, not the world, as you are suggesting. It is important to consider the specific context in which Paul's words were spoken.

1 Corinthians 5:13 New International Version
13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.

Your conduct as a JW reflects poorly on the principles of Christianity, as it seems that you accept and excuse the bad behavior of others. Claiming that you are not doing anything wrong does not align with being a JW. Remember that God sees and will judge all actions.

When either you or Tom become upset about disfellowshipping someone for speaking the truth, dissenters should indeed be disfellowshipped for demonstrating unchristian behavior that goes against the teachings of Christ.

There is a distinction between poor judgment exhibited by fallible individuals. They make no sense with their actions.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, BTK59 said:

and his behavior in this instance displayed no indications of remorse

Actually, he expressed remorse quite clearly on the forum. But from what I understand from you, you have the ability to read hearts and therefore you can judge without being concerned about being judged with the same measure in return. 

You quoted 1 Cor 5:13 which, in context, also says:

(1 Corinthians 5:11-13) . . .But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

I'm sure you can easily guess who 99% of the people on this forum first think of when they hear the word "reviler." Remember that God sees and judges all actions.

[BTK59]

28 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Actually, he expressed remorse quite clearly on the forum. But from what I understand from you, you have the ability to read hearts and therefore you can judge without being concerned about being judged with the same measure in return. 

By whose standards do you judge? You cannot grant forgiveness to an unrepentant person. Therefore, your brand of remorse holds no weight. What truly matters is whether he persists in attacking the Watchtower, the Elders, and the Governing Body in a slanderous manner by accusing them of following God's laws. He is the one who committed a heinous act against children, not the Watchtower. Therefore, what justification could he possibly have for attempting to shift the blame onto the actions of the Watchtower? What excuse do you have for defending a disfellowshipped individual as a former bethelite? You have no excuse whatsoever.

You are projecting the same ignorance that you accuse me of, as you are also attempting to justify your own unchristian behavior.

Indeed, you, Tom, and the others in your closed club all belong to the category of "revilers," who do not hesitate to criticize your brother. It is important not to misuse scripture to justify your actions without proper understanding. But, in this case, who is truly worse: you, Tom, the others in your closed club, or me? I am simply defending God's truth, while it seems like you are only bringing disgrace to His name and distorting the very essence of what a true Christian should be.

[BTK59]

Why not take this opportunity to reflect on your own conduct, particularly as a professed Jehovah's Witness, instead of shifting the focus from your failure in history to defending someone whose actions seem deceptive despite their claims of remorse? Let's delve into this topic further and discuss your own adherence (Ad Nauseum) to Christian principles.

[BTK59]

You may attempt to shift the blame for your own bad behavior onto me in this situation, but rest assured, it will be in vain. God sees and understands the true intentions of every individual's heart. Thus, this passage is applicable to some people here in this context.

James 1:26-2:13 New International Version
26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Proverbs 26:24-26
Proverbs 26:24-26 24 Enemies disguise themselves with their lips, but in their hearts they harbor deceit. 25 Though their speech is charming, do not believe them, for seven abominations fill their hearts. 26 Their malice may be concealed by deception, but their wickedness will be exposed in the assembly.

Why did you quote proverbs if you are not following the advice? Is there a similarity between what you are doing and the actions of the Pharisees during Jesus' time?

1 Peter 2:1
1 Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.

Keep in mind the purpose: the Bible does not silence those who speak the truth. It seems that some individuals here are attempting to suppress it.

[BTK59]

12 hours ago, Miracle Pete said:

Imagine actually knowing BTK/George/Alphonso in ‘ real life’ . It would be pretty grim. 

I believe it is essential for people to question how Tom perceives himself as a witness, particularly considering all his questionable and multiple accounts. Is it not a grim thought that God might consider you to be superior to Him?

[TrueTomHarley]

12 hours ago, BTK59 said:

But, in this case, who is truly worse: you [JWI or], Tom,

He is.

Nonetheless, his example has helped me. I had a ‘take no prisoners’ approach when I first became active here. Nobody gonna saying nothin bad bout God nor the earthly organization on my watch. I was not free of ad hominem attacks. Nothing like you, of course, but I was not free of them. I was also given to sarcasm.  He reined me back that. Sometimes you have to see where people are coming from and why. If you address a topic, just address it. Just answer a question. If you employ any sarcasm at all, even though the rest of your answer is brilliant, the other person will zero in only your sarcasm, and the overall reply is lost. Of course, it still stands for members of ‘the public’ who frequent this fine site, but it also sets a bad example for them. I look upon almost with awe on how restrained he keeps himself when interacting with you, kicking back only when your adhominems and weird accusations become intolerable, and even then in a restrained way. Anyone else rather quickly collapses under your dark strangeness and throws themselves against the electric fence, like concentration camp inmates who have lost hope.

To be sure, I don’t share his interest in this particular matter of 607. If it is wrong, it will be changed. Probably, the rapid deterioration of this systems of things will make the point moot, anyway. And you can always say, ‘Oh, to blazes with it! ‘Generation’ means ‘era,’ and in that way get another 60 years out of it, if not more.

Why doesn’t he state his point just once or twice and move on? I think it is quite clear that is what would happen if not for you. He states a point in a scholarly way. You apply accelerant and make sure the entire ‘public’ knows about it. In this way, you facilitate ‘apostasy’ far more than he.

It is crucial that you stop doing this.

10 hours ago, BTK59 said:

I believe it is essential for people to question how Tom perceives himself as a witness

Absolutely vital. The public should drop everything to figure it out. Start with the excellent book (my latest) ‘In the Last of the Last Days: Faith in the Age of Dysfunction,’ available at Amazon, and most ebook retailers. Take note of the metadata:

“Those of the Enlightenment laud the “human experiment” that is democracy, Jehovah’s Witnesses laud the human experiment that is worldwide family. Theirs is John Lennon’s brotherhood of man not rejoicing that there is above us only sky but instead seeking direction from that sky. A family all but solving racism, a family uniting nationalities and social classes. Who wouldn’t want a double-shot of it? But even a recent circuit overseer likened it to “one big, united, happy, somewhat dysfunctional family,” a phrase I suspect is not in any outline.

“Witnesses are ordinary folk, with all the foibles of ordinary folk, and sometimes a few extra thrown in since “They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are ill do: I [Jesus] came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

“What drives the Witnesses? Examine what faces these ordinary folk who star in a world-stage role that is alternately noble and strange. Some challenge is external: “A large door that leads to activity has been opened to me, but there are many opposers.” Some challenge is internal: “We have this treasure [of the ministry] in earthen vessels.” Translation: “We have met the enemy and he is us.”

“Either way, “Do not be puzzled at the burning among you . . . as though a strange thing were befalling you,” says Peter. Don‘t be puzzled. Tackle it head-on. Start with the pure bonus, ‘Things that drive you crazy about the faith--and how to view them,’ for the goal is to endure: “When the Son of man arrives, will he really find the faith on the earth?” says Jesus. ‘Not if we have anything to do with it,’ reply ever increasing enemies.

"If errors were what you watch, O Jah, O Jehovah, who could stand?” asks the psalm. Is watching errors not the mission statement of today’s culture, typified in its media? Nobody stands as their enemies magnify, enhance, and even concoct evil reports—see it play out on the internet with any public figure, “admiring personalities,” until they destroy them. Ought Christians play that game?

"Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is stumbled, and I am not incensed? If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness,” says Paul. Three times the apostle entreated God to remove a “thorn in his flesh” Nothing doing, God said. I look better when you are flawed. If brilliant people achieve brilliant things, it’s easy to see why. But when flawed people do it . . .”
“Tips on the ministry within. How did Witnesses fare in the face of COVID-19? How to regard ever-present conspiracy theories that ripple through society? And what about those overlapping generations? How long can they overlap? What is at stake? What facts on the ground identify the times? Venturing to the edge of the universe, rewriting the textbooks, and dressing down the god of good luck is all in a day's work. Meet Mephibosheth, that faithful man of old whom nobody can pronounce his name at the New System Dinner Table. A bad boy turns over a new leaf, a theodicy that works, and my favorite circuit overseer finish up the offerings.”

It is essential that people read this work.

(I have a collection or two of the Bill Watterson cartoons ‘Calvin and Hobbes’ Some are named things like ‘The Essential Calvin and Hobbes.’ Watterson said he chose such titles because few things could be less essential than a collection of cartoons. I admit, I tease you a bit when so many things with you are ‘essential, and ‘crucial.’)

[Thinking]

On 6/22/2024 at 10:29 PM, BTK59 said:

The example given showed individuals who are incorrigible, aside from those depicted by Tom. Have you not just admitted that you are fond of someone who has been disfellowshipped? I believe this has just proven my point. Furthermore, it speaks volumes when a former Bethelite supports your viewpoint.

 

Yes I am fond of Pudgy..tho I’ve never had proof he was disfellowshipped….I would have still been especially fond of Peter even after he three times betrayed his Christ ….who as we know never disfellowshipped him…I don’t know who I’m really talking with…as to your name but your personality is familiar to me.

Actually I think you are very clever and knowledgeable with the scriptures and  Jehovah’s Witness’s and going by what you have said you must be very old. And go back a long way…I love your old historical memories and I have learnt from you a number of times and even upvoted you…..I wish I had your astute knowledge brother and your recall of scriptures…you certainly have a treasure with them.

But I do feel also sorry for you as you do not know Jesus very well..you lack the depth of his love. In our cong we had elders who said ….three strikes and your out…so many young ones were disfellowshipped . Most lost to the world but some survived it….Peter would have been disfellowshipped by them also and I have a feeling you would be like them.

You need to keep up with the new understandings and thoughts of the GB…they are teaching the real love that Jesus showed to those others considered ..good for nothing…they are really really pushing how we need to be kind to each other and even show kindness to those disfellowshipped…or did you miss that point.

Im preety sure you won’t change..but I wish you would be a little more gentle with people…I’m not an apostate and nor are the others you mentioned….but at least you and JWI and a couple of others keep this forum surviving….I would personally still love to hear about your experiences and memories of Russell’s time etc…as they are invaluable..

At least the conversation between you and JWI gives two sides to the coin….and each has good points to learn so I’ve learnt from both of you.

[Thinking]

23 hours ago, BTK59 said:

This is a weak argument, especially considering that Apostle Paul was explicit about God's intentions when he declared "have nothing to do with them." Therefore, instead of using your own emotions and misbehavior to rationalize going against God, it is better to refrain from dishonoring Him and tarnishing the reputation of the Watchtower.

Loving your enemy does not imply forming an association with them, as you are suggesting. If you had taken the time to pay attention to my previous comment about expressing concern for his well-being, you would realize that it demonstrates the concept of loving your enemy without any personal ties. I am not in favor of the decisions he made that caused him to encounter legal issues.

Do you have PROOF of your accusations….as far as I have seen over the years you dont……I am well aware that Jehovah is a reader of our hearts and minds…in my nearly fifty years…I should have been disfellowshipped many many times…what about you brother…have you always honestly been  pure in your heart and mind…….is anyone ?

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Just answer a question. If you employ any sarcasm at all, even though the rest of your answer is brilliant, the other person will zero in only your sarcasm, and the overall reply is lost. Of course, it still stands for members of ‘the public’ who frequent this fine site, but it also sets a bad example for them. I look upon almost with awe on how restrained he keeps himself when interacting with you, kicking back only when your ad hominems and weird accusations become intolerable, and even then in a restrained way.

I'm so glad it's you running this site. (LOL) 

Actually everything you said in your whole post are things I wish I had said. And I would recommend your latest book to everyone too. I've read it, and it's like a long set of really good segments of informal witnessing, like if we had Thanksgiving dinners and each year a friendly non-Witness relative came over and generously gave us 10 to 20 minutes to explain what makes Jehovah's Witnesses different. But the book is not about a lot of "we don't do this" and "we don't do that" and "we don't believe in this or that." It's positive stuff that we don't always get a chance to "boast" about. Overall, the book has the effect of adding up a bunch of these different segments without being preachy and makes it all relevant for our time. It's more like the "experience" of being a happy Witness, rather than a sermon about why we should be like this or that. 

Also Tom seems to come from the era of JWs where there (I think) was a lot more conversation about what was going on around us. Today, more of us are afraid to give an opinion on a political leader or Covid or some worldly event -- or sometimes on topics that would make us appear "unwoke" even when the Christian view is rather obvious.

This type of honest discussion about the world around us must be scary to some Witnesses, but I think it makes conversations between Witnesses and outsiders more comfortable when they realize that we all face the same world problems, but that our outlook is more positive.  I come from a time and place among Witnesses when a couple of my uncles were circuit overseers. Our congregation servant and later presiding overseer (COBE) John Mullersman hung out with Hayden Covington. And yes, Covington, although a member of the GB, had problems, and was disfellowshipped. His daughter even talked him out of doing a huge exposition of things he knew would be embarrassing. He died in Pomona, I think around 1979, the congregation we were in for a while. His daughter is still a Witness -- and very nice. It was common to hear the expression: "Half the brothers are here to test the other half." This didn't make us concerned that we had to expose things or be angry about things. It was just life in a fun, wonderful, and expressive -- but slightly dysfunctional congregation. Tom recognizes that some dysfunctionality is not a "crucial" problem, nor is to be unexpected. He even writes in some Witness "characters" that we are all familiar with.

When it comes to me currently "exposing" things to the public, I remember that this is a very small audience. Also, if I say something too one-sided, someone is usually there to attempt a rebuttal. This makes it easy for those who don't wish to look into something to just dismiss it. Even what I just said about Covington is likely going to be rebutted, in some way. And although the rebuttal is something I might know to be untrue, public readers (including other Witnesses) will still be able to walk away without being overly concerned or "burdened" by it. 

But there is another reason I don't mind going to extra lengths on certain topics like 1914 or "the generation." I don't expect Witnesses in general to and read what I say and agree. It's not even for Witnesses. But I'll explain that later....