Watchtower's 1914 Chronology - Ad Nauseum

[Thinking]

11 hours ago, BTK59 said:

I believe it is essential for people to question how Tom perceives himself as a witness, particularly considering all his questionable and multiple accounts. Is it not a grim thought that God might consider you to be superior to Him?

I consider you and Tom superior to myself and I think he is a fantastic writer…he’s very good at his love of writing,,,,,more importantly he is a very good and trustworthy servant of Jehovah …and he’s humble and even admits he came here and was humbled….and I know him to be very gracious and kind also a little sarcastic at times,( I’m worse )

Forums can make you stronger or humbled and wiser or break you totally….they can also make one sarcastic nasty bombastic bitchy and frustrated …..( I can be guilty of all) but I’ve learnt things and got to  know some who I have affection for,,,and sure hope we meet at some time in that New World tho I think ..and I bet we wouldn’t mention anything that’s been discussed on this forum,,

[BTK59]

31 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Do you have PROOF of your accusations….as far as I have seen over the years you dont……I am well aware that Jehovah is a reader of our hearts and minds…in my nearly fifty years…I should have been disfellowshipped many many times…what about you brother…have you always honestly been  pure in your heart and mind…….is anyone ?

Do you view my statement as an accusation, similar to the baseless claims you've made before? Or are you highlighting your support for an excommunicated person, which contradicts the principles established by Paul?

Are you talking about the accusation James faced in court? Can you provide more details about your accusation?

[Thinking]

3 minutes ago, BTK59 said:

Do you view my statement as an accusation, similar to the baseless claims you've made before? Or are you highlighting your support for an excommunicated person, which contradicts the principles established by Paul?

Are you talking about the accusation James faced in court? Can you provide more details about your accusation?

Give me PROOF of his disfellowshipping…...

[BTK59]

56 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Yes I am fond of Pudgy..tho I’ve never had proof he was disfellowshipped….I would have still been especially fond of Peter even after he three times betrayed his Christ ….who as we know never disfellowshipped him…I don’t know who I’m really talking with…as to your name but your personality is familiar to me.

If James himself has explicitly stated something as a certainty, then your personal opinion is irrelevant. Therefore, we must decide whether to believe you, a nonconformist, or James.

58 minutes ago, Thinking said:

But I do feel also sorry for you as you do not know Jesus very well..you lack the depth of his love. In our cong we had elders who said ….three strikes and your out…so many young ones were disfellowshipped . Most lost to the world but some survived it….Peter would have been disfellowshipped by them also and I have a feeling you would be like them.

It seems that you are being held responsible for not sharing the message of Jesus and the Christian faith with someone. Now, you are attempting to rationalize James' expulsion by comparing it to the actions of the apostles. This appears to be unchristian behavior and thinking.

[BTK59]

1 minute ago, Thinking said:

Give me PROOF of his disfellowshipping…...

Is James's word not sufficient for you? Haha! I am confident that if you were to visit his congregation, they would offer you guidance. There's no need for me to prove anything to you. Are you denying the conclusion reached by secular law that his egregious act against children is a disfellowshipping offense?

[BTK59]

You are engaged in a pointless battle, stubbornly claiming superiority, while continuously proving me right and yourself wrong. I refuse to engage in a futile argument with an overly opinionated individual who defies all logic to defend someone who has openly admitted their wrongdoing. It's time to let it go.

[Thinking]

10 minutes ago, BTK59 said:

If James himself has explicitly stated something as a certainty, then your personal opinion is irrelevant. Therefore, we must decide whether to believe you, a nonconformist, or James.

It seems that you are being held responsible for not sharing the message of Jesus and the Christian faith with someone. Now, you are attempting to rationalize James' expulsion by comparing it to the actions of the apostles. This appears to be unchristian behavior and thinking.

I don’t even know what you are talking about….and yes I believed James….please let’s not get antagonised with each other….your really old and I’m old….we are wasting time…

[BTK59]

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I admit, I tease you a bit when so many things with you are ‘essential, and ‘crucial.’)

One thing I must assert is that I am not defending a mere earthly entity. No, I am defending the profound truth that God and his earthly organization ardently bring to light for all to behold. This truth is of paramount importance.

Jesus made it clear where the focus should be by bringing God's true words to the people as the ultimate truth. He emphatically declared that his kingdom was not of this world.

As I prepared to rest, I was struck by a simple truth revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. It seems that delivering this truth to you all is perceived as ad-hominem or sarcasm, given that your morals do not align with God's standards as in Romans 8:5. For 10 years, I remained unaware that some of you, despite holding "responsible" positions such as serving as an Elder or Ministerial servant after being at Bethel, should have led to a more profound spiritual experience. Instead, it appears that the mind has weakened the heart.

I was unaware that there are individuals among us who are spiritually impaired. Despite engaging in bible study and learning about Christ, they have failed to truly comprehend what they believed they had learned. Personally, I had been operating under this assumption, but now I am enlightened to the fact that this is not the reality.

We may have a personal understanding of scripture, but do we truly grasp its full meaning? When scripture is conveniently used to simply affirm our belief in Jesus as our Lord and Savior, and in the God of our forefathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but then discarded for our own interpretations, the essence of being a Christian is compromised.
Should we really be showcasing our lack of respect for God in hopes of attracting attention from others? It is simply unimaginable for a properly cultivated conscience to even entertain such an idea, and yet, here we find ourselves.

What truly saddens me is the absence of a solid foundation of Bible knowledge that should be established after embracing the truth. The considerable time it takes for individuals to fully acknowledge the truth and desire to share it with others, especially after being baptized, should be rewarded, as it ensures that we do not remain in darkness.
Since I do not share that understanding, I can see that some people here have never really understood the Bible in its proper context.

The main concern here is the distinction between "REBUKE" and "JUDGING." This particular aspect appears to be the central challenge in understanding the Bible, and it continues to receive significant attention, particularly in these open-opeds.

The truth is, there is a significant difference. When Christians openly criticize, especially with unfounded accusations and slander, it goes against the clear instruction in scripture on how to correct a fellow Christian should apply. As one individual mentioned, do we not have the right to have our own opinions? In essence, as believers who are not to be shaped by the standards of this world, the worldly concept of free speech does not apply in a Christian setting.

Therefore, the answer is no, we do not have the right to criticize our brothers. If a brother is veering away from the teachings of Christ, then that brother needs to be corrected.

God judges the people of the world, but we are called to rise above worldly ways. Our guidance comes from within, and we are bound by a set of rules that shape a righteous Christian life, setting us apart from the world. This understanding is driven by scripture.

This is the moment for the Christian conscience to discern between "rebuke" and "judgment." Many Christian denominations understand these differences, so why do some Jehovah's Witnesses here not? Are they incapable of comprehending, or did they become witnesses for the "wrong" reason? If this distinction cannot be seen, then the latter applies.

It is unfortunate that some individuals develop an unhealthy obsession with negativity and worldly matters. One example In particular, there are sisters who may mistakenly equate the man-made concept of "equality" with the biblical principle of being treated as equals. However, it is essential to acknowledge that these two ideas are not synonymous. It is our duty as brothers to guide and support our sisters, and by promoting such ideology, we are doing them a disservice.

How can we differentiate the ideology of criticism and opinion if it is not properly understood and is being incorporated into scripture without any basis?

Now when scripture explicitly states such admonition as:

NIV  Leviticus 19:17 "'Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt. (Lev. 19:17 NIV)

NIV  Proverbs 24:25 But it will go well with those who convict the guilty, and rich blessing will come on them. (Prov. 24:25 NIV)

NIV  Ecclesiastes 7:5 It is better to heed the rebuke of a wise person than to listen to the song of fools. (Eccl. 7:5 NIV)

NIV  Luke 17:3 So watch yourselves. "If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. (Lk. 17:3 NIV)

NAS  1 Timothy 5:20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also may be fearful of sinning.
 (1 Tim. 5:20 NAS)

YLT  2 Timothy 4:2 preach the word; be earnest in season, out of season, convict, rebuke, exhort, in all long-suffering and teaching, (2 Tim. 4:2 YLT)

NIV  Titus 1:13 This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith (Tit. 1:13 NIV)

NIV  Titus 2:15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you. (Tit. 2:15 NIV)

This is in no way a judgment of others, as it is being claimed here.

True Christians can truly appreciate what God deems essential when a fellow believer deviates from the right path by distorting scripture to support the idea of loving one's enemy. There are clear limitations set for Christians to adhere to, ensuring they do not conform to the ways of the world. When someone who claims to be a brother or sister in Christ conducts themselves in a manner that aligns with worldly values, distorting the fundamental truths of Christianity, and does so openly, then the teachings of scripture are applicable to those individuals who consider themselves members of the body of Christ.

Understanding the true essence of unity within the Body of Christ is absolutely crucial. It is Christ's vision for his body to exemplify "purity." Therefore, if a Christian manipulates the concept of godly devotion to suit their own desires and subsequently uses it as an excuse or justification, they have already compromised that purity and consequently do not merit to be a part of the Body of Christ.

Once again, I find it disappointing that those identifying as Jehovah's Witnesses here seem to lack a full understanding of the Bible, despite claiming otherwise for the past 10 years.

There is a clear distinction between rebuke and judgement. Once again, let us examine the difference.

rebuke: to express disapproval of; reprove.

Rebuking concerns the reproof, correction, and proper instruction of a matter.

Judge: to make up one’s mind about; form an opinion about. To think; suppose; conclude; criticize; blame. To govern, impose, punish.

Judging entails prosecuting, extracting justice, or imposing some kind of punishment.
When individuals openly criticize others based on their personal opinions, they are, in essence, passing judgment.

Similarly, when these individuals openly accuse and defame the organization, its Elder arrangement, and the governing body, they too are engaging in judgment.

When dissenters openly express their opinions, they provide an opportunity for receiving corrective feedback, which is accepted according to the standards of the Bible. This is known as rebuke.

It is irrelevant whether a person believes in 607 or not. However, it becomes significant when an individual openly criticizes without possessing the necessary skills to comprehend the subject, merely driven by a desire to criticize and slander. In such a case, that Christian individual becomes vulnerable to rebuke, particularly in an open setting.
The Apostle Paul, led by the Holy Spirit of God, also established other measures to address Christian misconduct that some may consider indefensible in terms of judgment. This raises the important question: Are we exempt from God's laws? Who has the authority to determine what is deemed acceptable to God for us imperfect human beings? The word of God that's who.

Understand the words of God completely. We are not in a position to negotiate with God. We are either Christians driven by Christian values as part of our oath and vows Matthew 5:37, or we continue to defy God by being part of this world, in which case, God's judgment awaits us either way.

Romans 1:
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. 

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. 

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, zGod gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know cGod’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. 

There is indeed a significant distinction between rebuke and judgement. The judgement that certain individuals have brought upon themselves by becoming impure in the sight of God is undeniable. Yet, here we have just received a fine example from "thinking" to prove my assertion correct.

[BTK59]

4 minutes ago, Thinking said:

I don’t even know what you are talking about….and yes I believed James….please let’s not get antagonised with each other….your really old and I’m old….we are wasting time…

Do you trust James, who openly stated that he was disfellowshipped, which contradicts your previous statement? It was you who initiated the altercation, so the responsibility to maintain self-control lies with you, not me. Henceforth, I have no intention of wasting any more of my time with you.

[Thinking]

3 minutes ago, BTK59 said:

Do you trust James, who openly stated that he was disfellowshipped, which contradicts your previous statement? It was you who initiated the altercation, so the responsibility to maintain self-control lies with you, not me. Henceforth, I have no intention of wasting any more of my time with you.

Okay xx

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

Okay xx

He did say it. He also made it clear that the DFing was on this own insistence, that his elders didn’t want to, and they acquiesced only after he badgered them repeatedly. Seems he had a little legal matter coming up and he didn’t want it to reflect badly upon God’s name should it not turn out well. Odd, really, to fall on his own sword in that way, when no one asked it of him.

It is due to these circumstances that I and some others have had as much to do with him as we have. Alas, I can picture BTK walking out of the KH in discuss after that recent update advocating civil treatment of disfellowshipped ones.

 

[BTK59]

It seems that you have misunderstood the Watchtower article regarding false stories, Tom. While it is true that James was insistent that the Elders were reluctant, and he demanded to be disfellowshipped, I highly doubt that this is the truth. Particularly for the crime he was accused of. No Elder would hesitate to pass judgment on a baptized member according to God's will. The optics alone are harmful. Therefore, your speculation is unfounded and unverified.

You would need to personally advocate against the civil treatment stipulated by secular law through the state's legislation. I am not involved in determining how laws treat criminals and their intent as per the laws. Let's make that perfectly clear. I did not instruct James to commit the crime he was charged with. It appears that you are trying to hold me responsible for that, Tom, just as James holds the Watchtower responsible for following scriptural guidelines on disfellowshipping. His behavior should serve as a clear indication that he didn't initiate it as you suggest.

Since God's laws are not respected here, why should secular laws be any different? That's the impression you're giving the public. Try defying secular law and see what happens—other than being excommunicated.